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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Huge argument with my sister

169 replies

Christmasslippers · 30/11/2019 16:38

This will be a long post so I apologise in advance. I decided to post in this section rather than AIBU as I can’t be doing with all the vultures and I thought I may get a more grown up response on here as I have seen first hand how some of these threads go down.

I have recently had a huge falling out with my sister and I don’t know how/if we’re going to survive it. Bit of a backstory-
We have never seen eye to eye, since we were kids really. We’ve tried to make an effort to get along for the sake of our mum as it makes her happy. I’m 32, married with no children, we both work full time in relatively well paid jobs and we plan to have children in the next couple of years. I have always worked full time since leaving college at 18 whereas my sister has bounced between working part time and being on benefits.

She currently works part time in a care home and her partner works full time for a conservatory installation company. They have 3 children together and rent a 3 bed house from the housing association. They have always had quite a rocky relationship and have been on and off over the years but things have been much better since the youngest was born two years ago. Now this is the issue:

She claims to be a single parent living alone with just the 3 kids. This is absolutely not the case as he has lived with them since the youngest was born. Because of her lies, she receives quite a fair bit in benefits that she is not entitled to, amounting to approx £1,200 a month along with her wages of around £600.
He earns around £1,300 after tax so they are bringing in at least 3k a month.
From the £1,200 she gets in benefits £400 is deducted to go towards her rent, she pays the other £200. She also receives a council tax reduction as she is supposedly “single”. Apart from that she doesn’t have many bills except car finance (both, he has a 4 year old BMW and she has a brand new Kia). They also obviously have to pay towards clothing and feeding the kids. They don’t have any child care costs as on the two days she is working my mum looks after the youngest child, other two are in school full time.

They’ve been able to get away with this as he listed his mum’s address as his current residence. Whenever he gives her money towards the bills and kids he pays in cash and he also parks his car a bit further down the road from the house incase any of the neighbours suspect anything. They also don’t talk about their situation to anyone except family, even her best friend doesn’t know the set up. They are very clever and know exactly how to con the system. We have spoken about the set up many times and I have been honest and expressed my disagreement with it. She’s always said she knows what she’s doing is wrong and that she worries in case she gets caught, but still continues to do it to this very day. I will add, she is not doing it to make ends meet either, It is purely down to greed and wanting to go on lovely holidays and have nice cars. She’s always said she wouldn’t be able to do any of those things if she didn’t fraudulently claim, which is simply not the truth. She would still be able to have those things, but she’d have to save up for them just like most people. I actually helped her a few months ago fill in a benefit calculator online to see how much she would be entitled to if she declared her partner living there and they were still eligible for help, albeit a lot less than what she is getting now (around £700 difference but still entitled to £500 a month) and she said this is why she won’t tell the truth. They would still be bringing in just over 2k a month and most of the rent would still be paid. She also has the option to work more hours, as my mum is retired and has said multiple times she would be happy to have the youngest more. My sister chooses not to accept this offer and just continues to work two days a week and fraudulently claim instead. She doesn’t realise how lucky she is, in regards to child care. Most people have to pay nursery and child minder fees whereas she gets it for free.

Things came to a head when we were at our mums house on Tuesday night. Sister told us she was planning on booking Disney land Florida next year for the oldest child’s birthday and again jokingly said she wouldn’t be able to do it if it wasn’t for benefits. At this point, I lost my patience and we really got into it, ending up in a screaming match in fact, I’m just glad the kids weren’t there to see it all. Again I was honest and said I thought it was disgusting and that she had no morals. I told her I would understand if she was doing it to make ends meet (I appreciate it still doesn’t make it right) but that just wasn’t the case. She was doing it to have luxuries.

She said that I don’t realise how lucky I am because we have a mortgage and that there stuck renting. Yes, I have a mortgage, simply because we saved up for years to buy a house and went without holidays and other luxuries for quite a few years. We had to compromise, which I’m sure is what most people have to do. Unless your a bloody billionaire, you can’t have everything right? This isn’t my sisters attitude at all, she wants everything and she’ll do whatever she can to have it. She said that most of the money she was getting she was putting towards a mortgage. I told her I didn’t agree with it and that the benefits system isn’t there to support her buying a house and going on nice holidays. Like everyone else she would need to compromise on things and maybe not have so many holidays or go to bloody Disney Land. She ended up storming out of the house and we haven’t spoken since.

I spoke to my mum yesterday and she said that I should apologise. I really don’t think I’ve done anything wrong, but been honest. She didn’t like what she heard but it’s only the truth. My husband supports me wholeheartedly as he’s never liked my sister anyway. I’m prepared to go on with the rest of my life not speaking to her, but it does make me sad that we‘re not close.
I don’t think she will stop claiming anytime soon as she knows none of us would ever report her. I really don’t agree with it and I’m not sure if I’ll be able to get past it. It makes it worse because she jokes about it and thinks it’s funny. When I spoke to my mum she said that it wasn’t my sisters fault as they make it so easy for her to fraudulently claim and that most people would do the same thing. Yes, I agree they do make it easy for people to fraudulently claim and they should monitor these people more. I’ve seen first hand that all it takes is for the partner to change his address and hey presto your definitely a single parent.
I understand the DWP just take these people at face value but just because it’s easy to do it doesn’t mean you should. I think my mum is torn and just wants to make us both happy.

As I said above, I know how most of these threads turn out, particularly the one this morning and I’m sure most people will ask how I know all of this information. She is my sister, she’s not just someone I have on Facebook and I have seen all the proof and had the endless chats. How do we move on from this?

OP posts:
VictoriaBun · 01/12/2019 05:11

You will be even more pissed off when you are getting towards pension age and your house is taken into consideration and decided you need no extra help, or having to sell it if one of you need care.
Meanwhile your sister and her husband will be moved / downsized into a warmer sheltered accommodation , more benefits or free care in a care home where you could be paying over £1000 a week for the same care home.

PhilCornwall1 · 01/12/2019 05:12

OP, rest assured ultimately she will get found out. Others around will not be blind to what she's doing. All it takes is for someone to be get upset with something she/he says or does and that's it, they'll report.

Years ago, I used to work for a Local Authority and was quite friendly with a couple of people who worked in the benefits fraud team. Once they have even a sniff that something could be wrong, they are like a dog with a bone.

As for apologising, I wouldn't and not for the shouting either. Personally I would be able to have anything to do with her again.

erinaceus · 01/12/2019 05:17

I've not read the whole thread but:

Are you and your sister able to agree to disagree on this, and to avoid discussing the topic? Specifically, if you draw her attention to how much her joking about making a fraudulent claim distresses you, she might be able to see that her jokes are damaging your and her relationship, and stop making them. If she continues to press your buttons in this way, you could distance yourself then.

The other thing you could do is offer her practical help with budgeting, which comes naturally to some people and not to others.

BagpussAteMyHomework · 01/12/2019 05:34

You’ve given a LOT of identifying details in your post. Are you hoping someone will recognise her?

gerispringer · 01/12/2019 05:40

Definite report - or warn her that you are considering it. If she was defrauding people at the care home would you stand by?

lljkk · 01/12/2019 05:47

If you report her then you may lose your entire family not just your sister. Don't think I could risk that.

Some of the info didn't line up... youngest is 2yo & boyf. lived with them since youngest born but defrauding for 3-4 yrs? What was the fraud b4 youngest born?

PhilCornwall1 · 01/12/2019 06:41

You’ve given a LOT of identifying details in your post. Are you hoping someone will recognise her?

My thoughts too. This is probably ideal Daily Mail fodder too.

ukgift2016 · 01/12/2019 06:50

I think you have no loyalty towards your sister, this stinks of pure jealously. If you report your sister at this point, the ramifications could be huge. How could you do that to family? Cold.

Btw I don't agree with benefit fraud and usually these people get caught but to be the one to pull the trigger so to speak, is wrong.

StreetwiseHercules · 01/12/2019 06:51

I really couldn’t get excited about this. Whether or not someone else is a benefits cheat just isn’t anything to do with me. And would I swap places with that person? No.

There are far worse things happening in the world that some people getting a little bit of extra money from the government and the impact of benefits cheats on public finances is minuscule compared to most other factors.

The fact that she thinks it’s funny is something I would just roll my eyes at and cringe a bit. But they I’d just get on with my day.

Mlou32 · 01/12/2019 06:53

I would report her. People go on about how disgusting it is that the government is clamping down on benefits especially disability benefits, but they are doing it because there are so many fraudsters out there. There is so much coming out of the pot, a percentage of it fraudulently that how can we sustain the level of benefits that we do?

I would report it. She is stealing from and making a mug of those of us who go out and do a hard days graft to pay taxes and support ourselves.

Goldenchildsmum · 01/12/2019 07:02

*You’ve given a LOT of identifying details in your post. Are you hoping someone will recognise her?

My thoughts too. This is probably ideal Daily Mail fodder too.*

Yes - I thought the excess information was probably given in the hope that someone else will report the defrauder and then the OP won't have to

Countryescape · 01/12/2019 07:04

Disgusting behaviour from your sister. I’d definitely dob her in. She’s a bloody thief!

shiveringtimber · 01/12/2019 07:07

I think you should mind your own business!

LotteLupin · 01/12/2019 07:16

Ok so you can't report her. She's your sister. And your mum's daughter. You would hurt too many people too much. She ultimately you wouldn't be fixing the real issue here.

This starts with your mum. She's been the moral guide and she needs also to step up here.

Your aim has to be your sister coming clean. She has to say he's moved in and he has to change his address. And then they have to get £700 less and she has to work more. And only go to Disneyland if they save up.

So see your mum in your own. Reassure her you won't report it. But tell her you plural - you and your mum - can't let this carry on. Tell your mum that apart from anything else, every day your sister risks getting caught and thinking otherwise is just an illusion, it's denial. Say you can't let your sister carry on in that vulnerable position and tell your mum she shouldn't either.

Say you both have to work together to change your sister's approach.

Then you both need to sit your sister down and go through a plan for what she will have and do after she's got the £700 less.

I think you need to work on your mum until she gets it. Because it's your mum's facilitating and passive condoning that is perpetuating this. If your mum says it has to stop, I think it will.

stucknoue · 01/12/2019 07:50

You can anonymously report. The maximum days a week a non resident partner can stay over is 4 nights a week, if they are breaking this then it's fraud against us tax payers. Your mum doesn't have to know it's you, I'm sure others are equally fed up with them splashing their illegally obtained benefits

BlouseAndSkirt · 01/12/2019 07:51

OP I get the moral outrage, I really do, she is a thief.

But I would go at it s different way.

Tell her that you are sorry for judging her, but you are seriously concerned that she will get found out. That you worry that although her DP reaps the rewards, nice car etc, it is her who would end up in the paper, fined, community service, a tag and very very possibly prison.

That you really worry for the kids in this scenario. How upsetting it would be.

Say this to your Mum, too. If your Mum has any nouse she would worry about her grandchildren seeing their Mum convicted.

Tell her if she just stops, all that worry will be lifted.

AgentJohnson · 01/12/2019 08:10

How do we move on from this?

You both have to agree to disagree.

However, I think your question is disingenuous because I believe your question is ‘How can I stop my sister from being such a blatant benefit abuser’. The easy answer to that is you can’t. The price of maintaining a relationship with your sister is not reacting to her blatant abuse of the system and her need to broadcast it

Maltesefalcon · 01/12/2019 08:15

Hercules you do realise that it's our tax payers money that is financing this fraud??

StreetwiseHercules · 01/12/2019 08:17

“ Hercules you do realise that it's our tax payers money that is financing this fraud??”

Yes, I do, and it’s not ideal but at the same time so what? Much more of our taxpayers money is used in far worse ways.

It’s a crime, sure, but there are much bigger fish to fry in this world.

TartanMarbled · 01/12/2019 08:22

Please don't report your own sister Sad

Botanica · 01/12/2019 08:25

I'm shocked by how many people think it's ok to let this go.

Imagine if we all knew one person defrauding the system do we all just turn a blind eye?

When is it too much?
When one in ten people cheat the system? One in five? One in two?

To see people get away with it and to realise how many people think it's not worth reporting must be sickening for those honestly scraping by with hardly anything.

Looks like we are in a society where integrity is optional and it becomes a downward spiral to the bottom.

By condoning these actions we are all doing our bit to erode the incentive to be a decent honest human being, living within our means.

PhilCornwall1 · 01/12/2019 08:31

By condoning these actions we are all doing our bit to erode the incentive to be a decent honest human being, living within our means.

Sadly, I think those values will shortly be a thing of the past, if they aren't already.

TitianaTitsling · 01/12/2019 08:35

What l don't get is the posters who are laying blame for anything happening at OPs feet, "how can you do this to your sister and DM"…. Well if the DS wasn't a benefit cheat none of this would be happening! So should shoplifters be let off any other crimes ok?

PaterPower · 01/12/2019 08:49

Fraudulent claims make up about 0.8% of the total welfare payments bill. It’s not right that people claim fraudulently, but the idea that it would make a significant difference if they all stopped tomorrow is just plain wrong.

Now if some of our bigger “tax efficient” companies paid what they should, or the DWP nailed some of the dodgier tax avoiding practices of the top 0.1% THEN we’d see a difference.

But we’re all encouraged to clutch pearls about people like OP’s sister because dividing and conquering is exactly how the rich (Tories) like it. They push inflated figures through comics like the Fail, publicise a handful of the juicier court cases and make sure we DON’T start looking at how many of the very wealthy pay less in % terms than the cleaners they employ.

Botanica · 01/12/2019 08:58

@PaterPower surely we all need to do our part however small for society rather than devolve responsibility if it doesn't make the majority difference to an issue?

Imagine we all took that view to climate change. None of us would be bothering with recycling or energy saving at home etc

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