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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Huge argument with my sister

169 replies

Christmasslippers · 30/11/2019 16:38

This will be a long post so I apologise in advance. I decided to post in this section rather than AIBU as I can’t be doing with all the vultures and I thought I may get a more grown up response on here as I have seen first hand how some of these threads go down.

I have recently had a huge falling out with my sister and I don’t know how/if we’re going to survive it. Bit of a backstory-
We have never seen eye to eye, since we were kids really. We’ve tried to make an effort to get along for the sake of our mum as it makes her happy. I’m 32, married with no children, we both work full time in relatively well paid jobs and we plan to have children in the next couple of years. I have always worked full time since leaving college at 18 whereas my sister has bounced between working part time and being on benefits.

She currently works part time in a care home and her partner works full time for a conservatory installation company. They have 3 children together and rent a 3 bed house from the housing association. They have always had quite a rocky relationship and have been on and off over the years but things have been much better since the youngest was born two years ago. Now this is the issue:

She claims to be a single parent living alone with just the 3 kids. This is absolutely not the case as he has lived with them since the youngest was born. Because of her lies, she receives quite a fair bit in benefits that she is not entitled to, amounting to approx £1,200 a month along with her wages of around £600.
He earns around £1,300 after tax so they are bringing in at least 3k a month.
From the £1,200 she gets in benefits £400 is deducted to go towards her rent, she pays the other £200. She also receives a council tax reduction as she is supposedly “single”. Apart from that she doesn’t have many bills except car finance (both, he has a 4 year old BMW and she has a brand new Kia). They also obviously have to pay towards clothing and feeding the kids. They don’t have any child care costs as on the two days she is working my mum looks after the youngest child, other two are in school full time.

They’ve been able to get away with this as he listed his mum’s address as his current residence. Whenever he gives her money towards the bills and kids he pays in cash and he also parks his car a bit further down the road from the house incase any of the neighbours suspect anything. They also don’t talk about their situation to anyone except family, even her best friend doesn’t know the set up. They are very clever and know exactly how to con the system. We have spoken about the set up many times and I have been honest and expressed my disagreement with it. She’s always said she knows what she’s doing is wrong and that she worries in case she gets caught, but still continues to do it to this very day. I will add, she is not doing it to make ends meet either, It is purely down to greed and wanting to go on lovely holidays and have nice cars. She’s always said she wouldn’t be able to do any of those things if she didn’t fraudulently claim, which is simply not the truth. She would still be able to have those things, but she’d have to save up for them just like most people. I actually helped her a few months ago fill in a benefit calculator online to see how much she would be entitled to if she declared her partner living there and they were still eligible for help, albeit a lot less than what she is getting now (around £700 difference but still entitled to £500 a month) and she said this is why she won’t tell the truth. They would still be bringing in just over 2k a month and most of the rent would still be paid. She also has the option to work more hours, as my mum is retired and has said multiple times she would be happy to have the youngest more. My sister chooses not to accept this offer and just continues to work two days a week and fraudulently claim instead. She doesn’t realise how lucky she is, in regards to child care. Most people have to pay nursery and child minder fees whereas she gets it for free.

Things came to a head when we were at our mums house on Tuesday night. Sister told us she was planning on booking Disney land Florida next year for the oldest child’s birthday and again jokingly said she wouldn’t be able to do it if it wasn’t for benefits. At this point, I lost my patience and we really got into it, ending up in a screaming match in fact, I’m just glad the kids weren’t there to see it all. Again I was honest and said I thought it was disgusting and that she had no morals. I told her I would understand if she was doing it to make ends meet (I appreciate it still doesn’t make it right) but that just wasn’t the case. She was doing it to have luxuries.

She said that I don’t realise how lucky I am because we have a mortgage and that there stuck renting. Yes, I have a mortgage, simply because we saved up for years to buy a house and went without holidays and other luxuries for quite a few years. We had to compromise, which I’m sure is what most people have to do. Unless your a bloody billionaire, you can’t have everything right? This isn’t my sisters attitude at all, she wants everything and she’ll do whatever she can to have it. She said that most of the money she was getting she was putting towards a mortgage. I told her I didn’t agree with it and that the benefits system isn’t there to support her buying a house and going on nice holidays. Like everyone else she would need to compromise on things and maybe not have so many holidays or go to bloody Disney Land. She ended up storming out of the house and we haven’t spoken since.

I spoke to my mum yesterday and she said that I should apologise. I really don’t think I’ve done anything wrong, but been honest. She didn’t like what she heard but it’s only the truth. My husband supports me wholeheartedly as he’s never liked my sister anyway. I’m prepared to go on with the rest of my life not speaking to her, but it does make me sad that we‘re not close.
I don’t think she will stop claiming anytime soon as she knows none of us would ever report her. I really don’t agree with it and I’m not sure if I’ll be able to get past it. It makes it worse because she jokes about it and thinks it’s funny. When I spoke to my mum she said that it wasn’t my sisters fault as they make it so easy for her to fraudulently claim and that most people would do the same thing. Yes, I agree they do make it easy for people to fraudulently claim and they should monitor these people more. I’ve seen first hand that all it takes is for the partner to change his address and hey presto your definitely a single parent.
I understand the DWP just take these people at face value but just because it’s easy to do it doesn’t mean you should. I think my mum is torn and just wants to make us both happy.

As I said above, I know how most of these threads turn out, particularly the one this morning and I’m sure most people will ask how I know all of this information. She is my sister, she’s not just someone I have on Facebook and I have seen all the proof and had the endless chats. How do we move on from this?

OP posts:
Sunflower20 · 30/11/2019 20:14

What a dishonest AND lazy shit. You really should report her. I hope she gets caught.

Kaykay066 · 30/11/2019 20:23

She will get found out, they’ll trip themselves up. Benefit officers come to the house, I had the council here last week as I had a change of circumstances so they were checking it out. I’m innocent but it still rattles you.

She’ll have to pay all the £ back and 3k fine with interest and possible prosecution especially via the council if she’s getting housing benefit etc fraudulently. I wonder if she thinks an extra few £ is worth a criminal record and poss losing jobs etc being branded a thief. She should be ashamed and I’m surprised she doesn’t live in fear.

Christmasslippers · 30/11/2019 20:41

I really am torn. On one hand I think she should face the consequences of her actions, like any of us would have to if we did this. It's theft, it's exactly the same as going into a shop and stealing something but this is on a much bigger level.

I think she has dug herself a massive hole and doesn't know how to get out of it. I told her if she stopped claiming now there would be less of a chance of her getting caught. They have enough money working to afford their rent, bills and a few luxuries without having to defraud the system, but they just want more. It is pure and utter greed which (I think) is what pisses me off the most.

On the other hand, she is my sister and despite everything I love her. I don't want her to go to prison or lose her kids. They don't deserve that but I do think she needs to grow up and realise what a risk this is.

DWP need to tighten their belts also. I think it's absolutely shocking how easy it was for them to claim all this money. They obviously don't even do any checks as in the last four years no one has been to check on them. It's silly as well as on her Facebook it shows that she's in a relationship with him. I feel sorry for the genuine claimants who get treated like shit.

OP posts:
Christmasslippers · 30/11/2019 20:48

I didn't notice your comment earlier @Beautiful3, do you mind if I ask what happened once you reported your brother?

OP posts:
Ariela · 30/11/2019 22:33

I would apologise for shouting at her, and upsetting your mother over falling out, and that you'd like to extend an olive branch because you really don't want to still be fallen out over Christmas.

However I would also say that it doesn't stop you disapproving of her claiming and that you hoppe she thinks very carefully about continuing to do so, you cannot imagine somebody who knows she claims hasn't spotted the holidays /new car or whatever etc etc. Or knows she has bf staying there - her kids won't lie for example who are they friends with and telling 'my mum and dad this that and the other.'
And that you hope she will do the honest thing before she is called out on it and ends up having to pay loads back/gets taken to court for fraud.

Then consider giving her a deadline

MyNewBearTotoro · 30/11/2019 23:01

The DWP don’t have the time or money to check up on every claimant. They rely on other people to report it when they know of others making false claims - they will investigate reports of fraud but it isn’t time/ cost effective to investigate every claimant.

The reason your sister has been able to get away with it for so long is because not only is she happy to lie and cheat the system but her friends and family have similar morals and are also happy to watch her lie and cheat the system without reporting it. If you know somebody is commuting a crime such as fraud as a member of society it’s your duty to report it and not ignore it just because they’re family. Would you do nothing if you knew a family member had committed theft? Assault? A sex crime? Murder?

You’ve chosen to ignore your sisters crime but don’t blame the benefits system. It’s not the systems fault that your sister is blatantly committing a crime but nobody is willing to recognise benefit fraud as a serious crime and actually report her. Most people wouldn’t ignore other forms of crime just because it was family, the fact you’re willing to let her keep on committing crime says more about your failings than those of the benefits system.

CruellaDeVille2019 · 30/11/2019 23:37

You are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
You either turn a blind eye to what is quite a serious benefit fraud which has clearly been well thought out, planned, concealed and is now long running.
Or..
You report your sister, risk causing a permanent family rift which will almost certainly involve you being the bad person in the family, see your sister go to prison (yes, she would get prosecuted and it's too much money for her to avoid a prison sentence), your neices/nephews without their mum while she is doing her sentence and probably leave your sister unemployable once she came out from prison.

Does she post about the holidays etc on SM? Do her friends know that they go on these expensive trips? Kids are harder to shut up, especially if they are excited about something such as Disney. The DWP aren't stupid. They are now checking social media for anyone who is suspicious and will spot things like lots of holidays or expensive clothes. It only takes one person to get suspicious and make that phone call and your sister's world will come crashing down.

Does her DP stay at his mum's house at all? I believe legally for him to say that he lives at his mums) he has to prove he sleeps there X many nights per week.

I would be inclined to research benefit fraud online. Print it out and give it to her
The thought of what penalties she will face if caught might be enough to make her see sense.

Botanica · 30/11/2019 23:39

Couldn't agree more with what @MyNewBearTotoro said.

If she is prepared to lie so unashamedly to the DWP then I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for her to start lying to you at some point, telling you she had stopped whilst she greedily continues to steal. All for a quiet life and to get you off her back.

If you continue to consciously choose not to report her then you are complicit in enabling her and condoning her crimes.

If she was conning money out of an elderly lady would you still turn a blind eye?

Linzi2377 · 30/11/2019 23:53

if her partner is down as living with his mother and he’s on the council tax there she will get away with it..I think you’re allowed a partner to stay with you and claim benefits something like 3 nights a week..so easy to get away with ..if he’s on no household bills they are high and dry..I bet there are loads doing it..how often do you take notice of neighbours ect?

Heartburn888 · 01/12/2019 00:02

I probably wouldn’t report because you can go to prison for benefit fraud and would you want to take your nieces/nephews mum away?

I can understand your pissed off thoigh, like you say although it isn’t right but if she was doing it to make ends meet and was REALLY struggling then it’s still wrong but if it was just a short term thing until she went back to work full time, but she’s booking flaming Disney land Florida with tax payers money essentially. It is a piss take.

Don’t apologise, she needs to come to the realisation by herself that what she is doing is wrong because at the minute she clearly doesn’t see an issue with the extra hand out she’s getting.

SandAndSea · 01/12/2019 00:18

I wouldn't report her. I think you could end up really regretting doing that.

However, it sounds to me that you would help yourself by detaching from her more. You clearly have very different values and need to respect your differences if you want to get on with each other. It can be easier to do that from a distance. Maybe see her less and agree not to talk about money issues when you see each other?

carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:30

I don't even read the whole story , the last paragraph says enough

carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:38

Another benefits bashing thread. I don't believe anyone on benefits has the money to go to Disney land .

carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:41

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carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:44

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Christmasslippers · 01/12/2019 00:44

Well maybe you should have read the whole story then @carolina21 as you would see I'm married Hmm why even post in the first place if you can't even be arsed to read the thread properly Confused yes I'm absolutely so jealous of people on benefits. Jesus, some people.

OP posts:
carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:45

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carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:46

That's the issue

carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:46

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Christmasslippers · 01/12/2019 00:46

I agreed with a pp who said she may be envious because I have a secure full time job and a mortgage. My sister has even said that herself but as you clearly didn't bother to read the thread properly you wouldn't know that would you.

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carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:48

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Christmasslippers · 01/12/2019 00:48

No I don't have children, and your point is? Maybe I don't want children right now? Why would I be jealous of someone going to Disney land Confused my issue is the fact she's using benefits which she's not entitled to to fund it. Do you know how ridiculous you sound honestly. I'm not entertaining you. You've only come on here to argue with me.

OP posts:
carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:49

She doesn't care what you are thinking she is busy she has children

carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:49

Well you shouldn't spread about your sister like that considering your mums health

carolina21 · 01/12/2019 00:51

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