Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Ps. I would love to have someone like you in my life. You sound so lovely. I wish I knew who you were IRL so I could come and give you a hug.

Thank you everybody for the kind words and titnomatani for the virtual hug.

DD1 Face-Timed again yesterday. She was on for about an hour altogether - she had to break off when DGD1 needed to be changed urgently but then called back later. In the end, I had to end the call by saying I had something to do, which I did. Tellingly, LB had gone to the other house to do work on it, so she seemed much more relaxed and wanting to talk.

I was able and willing to talk yesterday but I think DD2, completely understandably, becomes frustrated at my vacillating attitude to DD1. I know that I am inconsistent because my feelings are inconsistent. Sometimes the hurt overcomes me like a tidal wave and, at other times, I feel much calmer - DH's diagnosis puts everything else into perspective really.

I hope you are all safe and well with your families.

I think that will start to play on her mind, she clearly wants to talk to you and in her head she will start willing him to go out so she can. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end.

As for dd2 she is absolutely right to be frustrated as you have all been treated abominably and even though it’s hard to tell whether dd1 is completely a victim she has been the cause and that is difficult to forgive. I think you’re doing the right thing and just making sure that dd2 and 3 see you protecting yourself and being open with them is very important

Stay safe 💐

I am really glad that your DH is comfortable and tolerating the chemo well given the circumstances. I thought about you on Mother’s Day and knew that you would be cherished by the good people in your life and hoped that you would be able to allow yourself the swell of pride that you have been an excellent mother to DD1 even though she is unable to be a good daughter to you currently - as you can see for yourself that your love and hard work raising her is coming through in how she is loving and caring for your DGDs.

I think FaceTime a couple of times a week is the way forward - you get to read her emotions - and she yours - with less risk of misinterpretation. I believe LB didn’t allow her to send a Mother’s Day card and it tells you EVERYTHING you need to know that she only FT you when he is was out of the house. She is in a v abusive and controlling relationship.

I think that you have done really well to absorb and process the deep emotions this long term situation has caused. You and your family are also the recipients of vile emotional abuse by this man. What’s important is that it doesn’t inadvertently poison the bonds between you.

With DD2 it’s a bit like The Prodigal Son. She has also been your confidant and support, but maybe now that you are more clear by detaching emotionally from DD1 you could share less / lean less on DD2? You don’t have to justify your feelings to DD2 (she is not a mother, her whole identity as a mother hasn’t been demolished by her first born, she hasn’t been the direct recipient of the abuse, emotionally and financially blackmailed and then scapegoated for it all) - she can’t possibly understand it. Equally she feels frustrated when she sees you hurt so maybe some sort of adjustment to take the sting out of it for her?

I agree with Billy that this might well be the beginning of the end, especially with her “reflections” - but be v careful not to get drawn too close as it could backfire. These entanglements take a v long time to extract from. The average woman returns 7 times before they leave for good. Same with the detached love for the DGDs - save it for later.

You are also 100% correct in your suspicions of the MIL. It is unlikely that someone in that line of work is so repeatedly socially inept - she was bullying / goading you just below the radar so you couldn’t call it. The clue is the repeatedly. The apple didn’t fall far from the tree. But none of that is any of your concern. No need to clutter your headspace trying to understand MIL or SIL - just turn your back and look at your lovely DDs and DH.

Take care x

Great post again Gutterton.
How did DD1 get so sucked in ?
I didn't spot the goadiness of the mil. I just thought it was insensitive and they were fed the line ( obviously untrue) by their son that OP and family were not nice to DD 1. It could be they wanted to get across that if her own family didn't appreciate her, they did.

Fingers crossed for your DH too Albinoni

LadyEloise a really good way to read between the lines and assess a situation is to notice how someone makes you “feel”.

So don’t look too closely at the specifics of their words or actions. If they have an agenda to put you down, make you feel inferior you will feel that hurt. But you might be “confused” if the words or actions didn’t seem blunt enough. We are polite and don’t want to come across as irrational / over sensitive so we let things go - but it is sub consciously logged.

Over the last few posts Albinoni says frequently “they were nice but...” it is important to notice to the “buts” - this can be your subconscious / gut telling you something is “off” and you need to stop and listen to it even if you haven’t worked out what it is yet.

This gut feeling alerts your thinking brain to go on to high alert to find the evidence. But manipulative people try to get their snipes and slights in under the radar - so the evidence is masked - often wrapped up in some charm or faked innocence that leaves you hurt but confused.

A one off comment you would let go - but numerous repeated insensitive comments in a highly charged emotional situation where everyone would be on their best behaviour is “off”.

Anyone would treat a man v recently diagnosed with advanced cancer with exceptional sensitivity, care and respect. Sounds like they chose not to.

The MIL crowing about how successful SIL is jarred with Albinoni and rightly so. LB has not worked a day in his 28 years so the MIL’s crowing is deluded.

MIL was covertly signalling ownership of DD1 in her comments to Albinoni - repeatedly.

Albinoni feeling that this woman wants her positioned subordinately and v clearly on the periphery of her own daughters and granddaughters lives is spot on and must sting.

DD1 I expect has been groomed by the MIL who needs her to keep the vile LB subdued.

I suspect that the MIL is a “character” and it is probably v predictable how the FIL and their other adult daughter play into this dynamic.

There are many people on here who have walked DD1 shoes so they may share how she was hoovered in.

Albinoni - Although I read most of the thread, not sure I totally understand the dynamics of the relationship between DD and LB, but it struck me how accepting you are of him despite the clear tension.

My mum and I were estranged for years off and on through lots of complicated issues. There wasn't any one issue, but after my parents divorce at 11 years old, I stayed with my dad, and contact with her was less and less.

My dad died when I was 16 years old, and my mum never really stepped up, and that was fine. She was essentially a stranger to me, although looking back on it, she was hurt that I wanted to live with my dad.

For several years, I sofa surfed, went to uni, got married. It never occurred to me that she wanted any part of my life. She always knew where I was, missed birthdays, Christmas. I wasn't resentful but figured if she wanted to be in touch with me, she would.

In my 30s, she started visiting me, and that was fine. It was slow, and she often would make comments that my husband found odd such as, 'I didn't know you then...' in reference to our estrangement.

The difference I think with you and your DD is that you have always been there for her. She has been the one who has withdrawn from you, for whatever reason, but it seems as if you are the heart of the family.

What I find interesting is that DH knows the history of me and my mum and he feels angry on my behalf, whereas I feel way more forgiving. I don't know why, but as a mum myself, have a longer memory for those who have been dreadful to my own children.

I don't have any advice - my mum and I have an adult relationship if that makes sense. There were huge gaps. I don't feel as damaged as perhaps the facts should warrant.

I love that you are keeping an open door for DD but also setting boundaries.

So sorry to hear about your DH...

@Gutterton really interesting post. Has really made me think

Another great post from Gutterton.

I also noticed this MIL was covertly signalling ownership of DD1 in her comments to Albinoni - repeatedly. but couldn't express it as well.

In the end, OP, it doesn't matter whether she is desperately tactless because she's totally self focused or goadily defending her role in the LB/DD family to let you know your place. The outcome is the same she is not ( sadly) the neutral outside force to help bring LB back from his chosen path that you had hoped for.

DD1 calling you when LB is not there is an interesting development. Enjoy what you can from this, but I think you are wise to maintain your boundary eg by ending the call, limiting the calls. She may relax more into the calls because he's not there but he will know she's doing it and it will act towards his agenda.

Best wishes to your DH for his treatment. 💐💐 to you dd2 and 3

Glad to hear the communication seems to be improving between you and DD1, OP. The calls are a real connection for her to the family, and I imagine she is fearing losing her DF and possibly with that her whole family again. I know she was the one that detached from you, but she can see what she lost and wants it back. Only LB is curtailing and controlling this. He will only allow as much contact as suits him and his goals. It is indeed telling that she can talk freely when he isn't there.
I hope that in time she can be a comfort and support to you, rather than an emotional drain. I know how hard it is to forgive when you don't understand someone's actions and they havent explained or apologised. Perhaps this will come in the future, when your relationship with her deepens and she will feel safe enough to have those difficult conversations with you.

Do keep safe in isolation, as your DH is so vulnerable. I read yesterday that some NHS trusts are delaying starting chemo treatment until after the virus crisis has passed, so it's good your DH got in there beforehand.

Thank you everybody for your wonderful posts, which are so wise and very much appreciated. Gutterton, you are so articulate, as well as an amazing support. You have all given me a lot to think about.

Hi @Albinoni. Just thinking of you guys and hoping your weekend is going well.

Thinking of you too Albinoni my DH finishes his radiotherapy on tuesday and then he can self isolate. Our men are so vulnerable right now ...hope your DH is tolerating chemo.

I’m thinking of you too and hope you are all keeping safe . Sending love xxxx

Thinking of you and your family this weekend OP. Your DD1 obviously wants to be in contact with you. Take heart in that.

My lovely MIL had been told that her cancer has returned and much faster than we all expected.

Hold your loved ones close this weekend everyone. Xx

So sorry to hear that Bluebell. Life really is rubbish sometimes

Good morning everyone and thank you for your good wishes.

Bluebell - I am so sorry to hear about your MIL and I wish her all the best with her treatment and also you and the rest of the family. It is awful to see someone you love suffer and in pain.

champagne - good luck to your DH and you. I hope that the radiotherapy has been successful. My DH is tolerating the chemotherapy well so far, touch wood, but I am terrified that his treatment will be withdrawn as it seems that a number of cancer patients have had operations and chemotherapy cancelled because of the current pandemic crisis.

Sorry not to have posted for little while, but I have been thinking on all of the wonderful advice and support I have received here. Also, being in isolation gives time and distance to hopefully gain more perspective - added to the perspective of DH's diagnosis and the problems which all families are facing at present. 2020 seems unreal somehow - I keep expecting to wake up and find that it has all been a bad dream.

DD1 continues to be in touch every day with new photos, videos and recipes. She wanted to make another Face-Time call the other day when LB was working at the other house, but I said, quite truthfully, that my phone was playing up. I also didn't feel like speaking to her again right then, but she had a long chat with DH which he was pleased about.

She FaceTimed me the next day and we had a pleasant conversation with the DGDs in the background. They were in the garden and, interestingly, LB was there in the background, mowing the lawn - we even exchanged a wave! She has also posted a home made card to us, ostensibly from DGD1, but a lot of effort and thought had gone into it, as well as a memory stick with some films that she knows DH wants to see, so that he can watch them when he has his next chemotherapy session. In her way, she is definitely trying to make amends and I think LB knows that he has to at least tolerate us.

I was thinking about all of it and this might be a trite observation, but I believe that relationships are like plants - they need to be watered and tended, in order to flourish. My take on it, with hindsight, is that LB put increasing pressure on her to distance herself from her family until she got to the stage where she could and did function without us. My mother sadly died before her DGDs were born so I had to manage without her love and support, so DD1 has had to do the same. Except that she didn't have to....

I genuinely don't believe that she will estrange again and, with that thought, my frozen love is thawing - of course, it never went away, but was frozen by fear and self defence against further hurt. I love the DGDs because they are her DDs but not in the same way - there is not the same intensity, as I don't really have a bond with them, as I have only met them briefly. However, being pragmatic, we wouldn't have been able to see them that often anyway, because of the distance.

I think that being a mother has strengthened DD1 in all sorts of ways and given her more confidence. I am very impressed by how she brings up the DGDs, they are so happy and well cared for, she spends so much time playing with them and encouraging them to learn. She also runs the house, cooks everything from scratch, does lots of baking and crafts with DGD1 and helps with the renovation works, as well as spending three hours a day on her course work, which she is really enjoying. She seems to becoming more independent in her thought processes - just a little, but it is definitely there. Maybe DH's diagnosis was the catalyst for change, but change there definitely is.

The thing is that none of us have ever actually fallen out with DD1 as such, but she just isolated herself from family and friends, causing great hurt. I don't know whether she will ever be reconciled with her sisters but, maybe, when she looks at her own DGDs and urges them to love each other as sisters should, there will be greater understanding. DD1 can be selfish and thoughtless but she is not unkind.

Again, with the benefit of hindsight, I have been thinking dispassionately why I have never warmed to LB and I think that is the reason - he is just not a kind person. He has no generosity of spirit. He counts the cost of everything, not just things of monetary value, but everything. This goes hand in hand with his political views. He is simply not someone whom I can admire or respect, regardless of everything else. But I don't feel threatened by him any more - I believe that he has done his worst and that his power is evaporating.

That's truly wonderful. I am so glad you are finally getting a glimmer of hope in the absolute hell you've had to endure.

However. DD1 can want to reconcile with her sisters all she wants. She could fall on her knees and beg them.

They don't have to forgive. And they don't have to reconcile.
Anything that happens between the three of them needs to be on Dd2&3s terms. It can't be forced. DH can't ask them to be nice etc

They were hurt. She hurt them, and while you and DH can somewhat move on carefully they may want her held accountable.

It’s so lovely to read your most recent posts, even though DH illness is devastating you have real perspective and strength with the rest of the situation.

I once read that being broken like you were with the situation is like breaking a vase, you can glue it back together but the scars may fade but will always be visible, it’s what saves you from being hurt again.

Lb is well aware of this and I think you’re right that his power is diminishing. The way you describe him does remind me of a family member. When his df was very ill, his wife said that he couldn’t go to a home as that was their inheritance money, she even wrote DNR on the bottom of his hospital bed.

I don’t think there is any chance of a sibling reconciliation until Dd1 is able to truly apologise and I don’t feel she will be able to do that whilst she is still with lb.

I hope the current situation with the virus doesn’t have too much impact on DH treatment 💐

wibble - I know that you are right and DD1 has cut DDs 2 & 3 out of her life and hurt them so deeply and for so long that I don't think that they will ever have the relationship they used to have or might have had. The DGDs could have been an opportunity for healing as both DDs 2 & 3 were interested in their new nieces, but DD1 hasn't done anything to reach out to them.

I know that it would be wrong for DH or me to try to interfere - it was clear when we saw DD1 that she doesn't believe that the onus is on her. She thinks that she did her best to reconcile with DD2 and that DD3 has been influenced against her, which isn't true - DD3 was upset because DD1 dropped her abruptly, had arranged to visit her and then didn't turn up at the last minute because she was busy with LB's family. This was the same visit when she was due to have dinner with her closest friends - who would undoubtedly have gone to a lot of trouble to cook for her, as she was vegan then - but she just didn't go, said it was too far - maybe she couldn't afford it, I don't know. DD3 was only 18 then and had a bad experience at university - just in general needed, or would have been supported, by the love of her big sister, but it wasn't there. DD1 also failed to attend the 21st birthday of her best friend at the last minute because basically she couldn't be bothered to travel, although her friend came to hers. She said she wasn't well, but I know that her friend was terribly hurt, as her parents told me later.

I realise that I am not painting DD1 in a good light here, but I am just thinking back over the past and painting the picture. I feel as though some of you are my good friends, although I have never met you. I feel disloyal if I say anything bad about DD1 IRL.

DD1 FaceTimed again yesterday and I picked up the third time she called and had a chat for about 15 minutes then I said I had to go as there was something in the oven. DGD1 was there looking at a book that we took up for her when we went, pointing and saying the words and then jumping around the sofa - very bright, a real live wire. DD1 said did I mind that she called so often and of course I just said it was lovely to speak to her. I know that I need to be cautious but I feel that I just need to have hope at the moment - sometimes that is hard - and the DGDs are full of life and joy and of course my emotional ties to all of my DDs are strong and visceral, whatever has gone before.

DH is being brave and is doing everything he can to keep strong and I do feel hopeful most of the time, or I couldn't cope, but the prognosis is poor and sometimes it all seems too much. We can't even go anywhere to 'make memories', although we have everything we need here. I have this fantasy that we are on holiday, on a cruise ship, so we can't leave, as the sea is all around us, but we have plenty to do here and we are happy together with DD2. I just wish that DD3 could be here.

Another thing, which I haven't shared before, as it is very sensitive, but I know that this thread is about to run out, so it will then more or less disappear. When I have spoken to DD1 on the FaceTime over the last few days, I have realised that the last time we really spoke was when she took me on a city break in June 2016 - a few weeks before DD2's graduation when everything fell apart and which heralded the ghastly period of estrangement. DD1 said that the trip was a belated gift for Mother's Day, but told me when we were there that it was to thank me for supporting her through her termination.

A few months earlier, DD1 had turned up unexpectedly, as she lived about 200 miles away, said that she had something to tell me, she had been very stupid, made a terrible mistake. I knew what she was going to say, it was one of those moments when Time stands still. My mind was working very fast, such conflicting emotions, the potential joy of a grandchild but the fear that it would bind her to someone I believed to be controlling and potentially abusive. I bought time by pretending not to know until she told me, but of course I did know.

I managed to be calm and I asked her what she had decided to do and said that I would support her whatever decision she made. She said that she didn't want to go ahead. I asked her if she was sure and she said that she was. I asked if she had had counselling and she said that she had. She said it was very early - about 7 or 8 weeks - but that she had to go into hospital for the procedure. She said LB was very upset about 'the baby', but I don't know whether she meant about the 'mistake' or the decision to terminate. Anyway, I offered to go with her and support her, but she had already arranged it near to where she lived, but she did stay for a few days and needed a lot of emotional support, I just hugged her and made no attempts to persuade her to do other than that which she felt was best. She was 23, less than a year since she had graduated and neither of them had jobs but, if she had decided to keep the baby, I would have been overjoyed and I would have supported her in any way I could.

So, she went back, and the termination took place and LB was present. So, I knew exactly the date and time of the termination of what would have been DGC1, yet I didn't know about DGD1 until she was 14 months old. I wonder if LB thinks that I collaborated in the termination of his unborn child and that is why he didn't want us to know about DGD1. Yet, in the letter they sent with the photos of DGD1, they said that it was their third pregnancy and, as we knew, they had terminated the first one because of the timing. In fact, I didn't tell DH for about 6 months so it was quite a burden. It was one of the things which I had to have counselling about. How could the timing have been so bad if they chose to try to conceive the following year?

That is the thing that hurts the most, that I had the experience of the dead baby but not the live one. Sorry if that sounds bad and it's not something that I would ever say to DD1, but I think maybe she did want that baby really and I could have saved it, but she was honestly very set against it at the time. I didn't try to make her feel guilty, just to be supportive, as I believe that it is a woman's right to choose, even if I would have made a different choice and, to be honest, a piece of me was relieved that she wouldn't be tied to LB by a child. I wonder if she feels guilt, given how much she loves her DDs. I don't know, it's best not to go there.

Sorry that this is another long post, but thank you for all of your support. I have found it very cathartic to post here. Wishing you and your families a safe and happy week

Thanks billy, just cross-posted. I think the analogy of the vase is very apt.

Your family member's wife sounds just like LB. We have had our wills redone but can't have them witnessed yet because of the virus/self isolation!

Consider saving this thread if you think it will benefit you having it to look back on.

Perhaps LB didn't want to be tied to LB and in her emotionally fragile state he was able to trap her further. You may never know the truth. Maybe he was very angry about the pregnancy and it was a stick to trap her with.

Thanks Random - How do I save it?

Hmmmm no idea but I know people that do - copy and paste into Word?