Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

[DisplayPurposesOnly]

I also believe that DD loves me and genuinely wants a reconciliation

I'm sure she does but she will put her husband first - what he says goes. Whilst she's enmeshed in this relationship, she cannot make independent decisions.

Hopefully one day she'll realise she's in an abusive relationship but that could be many years away.

[Albinoni]

Thanks billy, I appreciate that.

@chaos - I am worried about her being isolated. She is with SIL 24/7 and doesn't seem to see anyone else apart from his DP. They spend Christmas, New Year and birthdays with his DP, and also went to DPs house after their marriage for a family BBQ, by which I mean his family, which I must admit does hurt me. However, she has recently joined a mother and baby group, which I am pleased about as it means that she will meet other mothers. She had a close knit group of friends from school who have all been dropped, to the extent where one of them contacted DD1 to say that they were worried that they had heard nothing from her. She was due to go to a get together a couple of years ago but just didn't turn up. I think they must be very hurt too.

That is one of the reasons I was prepared to support and encourage her in the PGCE, as I thought it would boost her confidence and help her meet new people and be exposed to new ideas. SIL has very right wing views which she has adopted, which I find troubling, as I don't want DGDs to grow up with racist views - it is not how the DDs was brought up. I suppose that DGDs make up their own minds in time.

I am sure SIL isn't physically abusive, but he controls all of the money and both of the houses are in his sole name. They live very frugally, which DD seems happy about, no make up, perfume, hair cuts, drinks, outings or other luxuries, so I cannot accuse them of being materialistic in that sense. It's just that they always want something for nothing and don't seem to want to work for or earn anything. I know that the situation is different for DD1 now that she has a toddler and a baby on the way, but she has never had a job apart from a few weeks in a department store one Christmas. In the last 5 years, SIL has done the placement which he gave up, and the PGCE. They were living on benefits whilst they were doing up the house.

I am sure DD loves SIL and and she adores her DD and enjoys looking after her own home. I don't want to make out that she is unhappy, because I don't think she is, but I am also fairly certain that SIL monitors her relationship with us and that he only gave her 'permission' to tell us about DGD1 after the 'loan' was made.

I agree about DD2 and DD3 and I am being careful not to discuss DD1 unless they ask, or to suggest any sort of reconciliation to them, as this angers them. It is not how it was when they were younger, when you could get them to kiss and make up. I do feel that I have been selfish in drowning in my own pain and grief for which I did get counselling, which helped, but we have all suffered. DD3 thinks I should get more counselling as I haven't yet come to terms with things, but I feel as though I am more looking for advice at this stage.

I agree that DD got pregnant again very quickly. She said it was because she wanted to have another baby before starting her course. They have previously spoken of wanting 5 children.

[Albinoni]

@ Display - I fear that you may be right.

[something2say]

Hello, I remember you too xx

My view is, hes controlling her. It suited him to let her ask for the money.

Soon she will leave him and then you can discuss the past. You're caught up in the drama she gets from him. But like I say, one day she may leave and then things can recover. Just be there for her xxx

[billybagpuss]

@Albinoni I also agree with @DisplayPurposesOnly I’ve been picking my words for you so carefully as I really want to be encouraging and supportive but as I’m sure you know, so much of this is waving massive red flags. He’s controlling her and playing you, on the upside she is messaging you regularly, that suggests she missed it and needs it and now she has permission to be in touch again she’s taking full advantage.

I agree with your other dd I think some counselling would help if only to speak with someone in real life.

[DeathStare]

Hello OP. I remember you and Lobster Boy.

This seems part of the usual pattern doesn't it? They contact you when they want/need something and put you in a position where you don't think you can refuse - no matter how unreasonable their request - without losing the relationship with your DD. Now they are doing the same while dangling the carrot of the DGCs.

There were always suspicions on here that Lobster Boy was being very controlling with your DD and trying to socially isolate her so that his was the only the voice she listened to (along with his family) and thus he got all his own way. I remember the last time you posted it looked like he was beginning to be successful and it seems that even more so now that has become the case.

I remember you having lots of advice just to keep reminding her that you loved her and were there for her but that you couldn't necessarily always do everything they (he!) demanded, and that that's what you were trying but he was rather manipulative in using that to try to turn her against you.

I would tread very carefully given the history. I think you are leaving yourself very open to being manipulated, though I'm not sure what the choice is.

What is your DH's response now? And your other DDs?

[DeathStare]

Just a practical/financial consideration.....

Would you have the finances to put aside a lump sum for "all your daughters". Maybe tell them you had a friend who was trapped in a marriage she couldn't get out of financially as she had nowhere to go, and it scared you to think that any of your DDs could ever be in that position, so you have put aside a sum of money that if they ever needed to get out of a relationship there would be enough money to help them set up on their own, no questions asked, but that this was money that would be put aside for that purpose only and that having seen what your (fictional) friend went through would never be used for anything else. Maybe even set it up in a trust with an independent trustee.

I don't know if that's a financial option for you, but if it is, it might be a way of ensuring your DD at least always knows she has a safety net to get out if she ever needs one.

[MaybeDoctor]

I am an ex-teacher and I think it will be almost impossible for DD to go through teacher training and emerge as a qualified teacher without having had her eyes opened at least a tiny bit. I also think it may create conflict between her and SIL.

She will need to get on board with ideas like equality of opportunity and inclusion for children of all backgrounds. There will be DV training at some point. She will face challenges that she will need to apply her whole self to in order to solve. Schools are busy places and will give no credence to her having to defer to her H. At the very simplest level, she will struggle to keep up with the work unless he is completely supportive. She will also need to spend money on resources for lessons. An astute mentor might even suss out that she is in an abusive relationship?

On another note, I despair of the cynical way that two people are exploiting the teacher training bursary system but that is a minor issue compared with the harm that has been done to your family relationships.

He sounds a nasty piece of work and I hope that she eventually leaves him.

[Thingsdogetbetter]

There are TWO houses already? So why did they need to 'borrow' off you for a third?

Or did you mean there was ONE house already and they borrowed for a second? Which is still a major WTF and totally changes the narrative of a controlled wife trying to secure a home for her dc!

Borrowing to get on the property ladder with a mortgage as a secure home is one thing. (But as they are unemployed they won't get a mortgage anyway - so what was the 'deposit' for? Where did the rest of the money come from?) You weren't enabling them to buy a home to live in, as they had one already. You were giving money for their 'property development' business!

Your pain and understandable desperation to have your daighter back has made you blinkered. Your daughter wasn't desperate for a pgce or a home. She choose to take money for a pgce and then got pregnant to 'delay' the course. She asked to 'borrow' money when they already had property.

The more you post the less I think this is all SIL. I really think your dc is milking you for cash in full collusion with her husband. But as long as you see her as helpless victim manipulated by evil SIL you won't be able to see you're being seriously taken advantage of.

Your other dc are right - you need more counselling as you are enmeshed in a reverse FOG. Your fear of losing her again means you're very vulnerable to his, and her, emotional manipulation.

I foresee a major problem with new house that needs an immediate large injection of cash - that they obviously can't get anywhere else but you. Or a medical emergency. Probably proceeded by a withdrawal of contact to freak you out and keep you desperate! Or a veiled threat that they'll have to move far far away and she can never contact you again.

[DeathStare]

@Thingsdogetbetter

IIRC the SIL had some dreams about buying property as investments? And also some "off the grid" type of small-holding for them to live on? All in his name. Paid for by the OP's money if at all possible.

[Hazardexhausted]

Oh OP I really feel for you.

One word has sprung to mind boundaries. You need to protect yourself first and foremost and i know thats hard because no matter how old your DD is your instinct is to always put her first. Like others I have no doubts that she loves you, of course she loves you but it sounds as if she is a mouthpiece for Lobster boy. What he says goes. Yes you may join your DD with going along with everything he says and wants but what will that do to you? Is that really helpful for her long term?

Consider maintaining some distance for the sake of your sanity, your other daughters and your finances. Maybe don't go along with all the carrots being dangled because it's manlipuative and you do not have to play along.

You can be a quiet steady presence for your daughter without getting suckered. It'll be tough and you might be afraid she'll walk away again and she might but no one wants you to be taken advantage of. You can love her without agreeing to all her choices and all his demands. You can support her by always offering your love and letting her know you'll always welcome her with open arms.

[Albinoni]

Thank you so much everybody for your wise advice.

DD2 and DD3 are also of the view that I try to blame SIL for everything when DD1 is obviously going along with things. DD2 has got quite angry with me in the past, as she feels that I am being taken advantage of. She thinks it is ludicrous that someone should expect to come out of university with a house bought and paid for, and has said that I need to have more self-respect. We get on wonderfully well most of the time, very close, but DD1 has caused issues. DD2 says exactly the same as you, Hazard, that boundaries are essential.

I also recognise the wisdom of not making a rod for my own back and perpetuating an unhealthy situation by simply capitulating. In fact, when I first received the photos of DGD1, my initial reaction was that I am very pleased for you, I wish you well, but that we have nothing else to say to each other, I just can't put myself through that again. She was incredibly upset, hence the emotional telephone conversation, in which she said she knew that she should have told us and wanted us to have an involvement in DGDs' lives. I agree that I need to be a quiet steady presence.

DeathStare, I appreciate what you say about maybe setting up a fund as a safety net, but DD1 knows that I will always be there for her. If SIL got wind of the fact that there was money set aside, DD1 would be on to me saying that the relationship was wonderful and that they needed the money. I do not intend to let me and DH be abused - and he won't allow it - after the PGCE course, I don't really see that we can or should do any more financially. Obviously, we would help out if they were in financial difficulties because of, say, a redundancy situation, but that is different.

Things - there are two houses, the one which they live in and the one which they have just bought, with a view to letting it out. She didn't delay the course, she had to wait a year anyway as there are very few places in the country for this particular subject, hence the need to relocate.

Maybe, I am reassured about what you say as to the content of the PGCE course - that is exactly what I am hoping, that she will grow and develop as, at present, she is stuck in this little bubble where she doesn't see anyone and isn't exposed to any other stimuli or ideas, although I know that small children are all encompassing. However, I am worried that the pressure may be too much if she is relocating and coping with a demanding course, as well as trying to do everything domestically. Hopefully SIL will be totally supportive, but we will just have to wait and see.

[Rosepetals30]

What?

They are buying another house to let but they don’t work, and are having another baby, and can’t afford to do this training.

You got a pair of spongers here!

[billybagpuss]

when I first received the photos of DGD1, my initial reaction was that I am very pleased for you, I wish you well, but that we have nothing else to say to each other, I just can't put myself through that again. She was incredibly upset, hence the emotional telephone conversation, in which she said she knew that she should have told us and wanted us to have an involvement in DGDs' lives. I agree that I need to be a quiet steady presence

Oh @albinoni, that must have hurt so much 💐 and hopefully made her realise you are a human being with feelings

[Winterdaysarehere]

I strongly suspect your dgc will become pay per view items to be dangled when they need something...
Proceed with extreme caution op....

[Geppili]

I

[Geppili]

Do you have a partner, Op, and is he the girls' father?

[Albinoni]

Yes, Geppili, I have been happily married to the DDs' father for many years.

Thanks billy and yes it did hurt and does hurt so much, especially as I would have said that we used to be close. We didn't actually fall out, but we saw her less and less and she told me that SIL had decided that he was not going to see any of her family ever again. As they go everywhere together, it effectively meant that she couldn't see us. She did, in fact, see us briefly a couple of times and we went to visit her for a couple of days (stayed in a hotel nearby) and spent time with her, but he declined our invitation to dinner. When we parted she hugged us and said she loved us, and she also presented me with a lovely picture of my dog which she had drawn and then she just blocked us for six months. I wondered if it was a farewell gift. It was excruciating. Why couldn't she just tell us? She has more recently said that, even though she had blocked us, there were other ways to get in contact and that I could have visited her (she lived 200 miles away).

[Kitty2020]

I remember your last threads. I have been involved with two v close family members who are in v controlling relationships. I liken your role (and my role) as the v dangerous one - where you are between a rock and a hard place - it’s almost the same as being the co-dependent and enabler in the alcoholic/addict situation. This could all blow up (yet again) v nastily in your face and lots of people and specific relationships will get emotionally injured beyond repair - you, your marriage, your family life with your other DD2/3, your DH, each of your DD2/3 individually and the relationship between your DD2 and DD3......we haven’t even touched on DD1, and the DGDs.

This is a very messy, dangerous landscape not just for DD1 but for all of you. This could come to dominate, skew, colour, wound and fragment your own family.

Do whatever you can to prioritise that first, because you will all need each other as your DD1 situation may run on and deteriorate for decades. This is all about damage limitation, containment and sustainability. This is a loooooong game with land-minds everywhere.

You need some sort of professional system like al-Anon which supports you to achieve this by “detaching with love” - because anything and everything you do around money is enabling, facilitating and feeding the toxic system to survive longer and become more entrenched.

You say that you are worried she won’t cope with the course, the babies, the move - this is exactly the “rock bottom” that she needs to get to - she needs to get to the hard reality of the natural consequences of his control and her “choices” - this is the moment where she has any chance of seeing reality and seeking help.

I think the course will be brilliant - I think childcare will be brilliant (pay it directly to the nursery) - this is her chink of light into the real world where there are trained professionals who hyper vigilant and poised to appropriately intervene. These will be the people who will pull the wool from her eyes - so make that happen. It won’t be you as he has conditioned her against you. Every word you utter will backfire.

I would read everything you can about coercive control from WA, Bancroft, etc I would ensure that your other DDs and DH were also well educated and informed with what you are dealing with and how you need to engage (open door/communication/no judgement or enabling) - so that you all know what end game is and how to get there together as advised by the experts. Otherwise the infighting about the right approach will corrode your family from the inside out.

I would not assume he is not physically abusive - it can guess he has been abusive with her fertility - this is a classic power and control tactic to get their partners pregnant repeatedly.

Financially your SIL by is control through marriage has shot himself in the foot - because no matter if his name only is in the deeds of the properties she will get her fair share if they did divorce.

This is an emotional tightrope when in reality you have v little control on the outcomes - but can control the inputs and there is a massive risk to the rest of your family relationships. Talk to the experts, get a game plan, emotionally protect yourself and know that in doing so you are doing the best thing for DD1 in the long run.

[Kitty2020]

I think that her saying you could have got in contact with her when she blocked you was a cry for help - he obviously blocked you - she hoped you would find a way around it.
This is positive it means she is still emotionally attached to you. But it was better that you didn’t as it would be ammunition to him to prove that you “don’t respect their boundaries”. She is then in a controlling tug of war game between you and him - he needs your involvement to create this tug of war tension to be able to blame you - so dropping the rope is a good thing. Let her come to you. Don’t chase her.

Also messaging you more is a good sign - but be aware that he could cut this at anytime and is no doubt monitoring. So vanilla all the way. Detached love.

[Geppili]

I asked about your partner because your posts sound as if you are carrying the burden of guilt and angst alone. What does he think about SIL? I think that you did really well to try to protect your initial financial help by stipulating it must be a loan and protected by Trust. Your SIL did not like this one bit. I think that is very revealing about his desire to control every aspect of your daughter's life, not least her money. I agree with other posters that this is a potentially very charged family dynamic. Keep communications open with your daughter but do not trust your SIL.

[MaybeDoctor]

Epic post @Kitty2020

I too recognise the parallels with a family member who entered into a controlling relationship. It was a very long game, but eventually the scales fell from their eyes.

There will be a chink in SIL's armour somewhere, it just hasn't revealed itself yet. I wonder if his own DPs are a bit nervous of crossing him?

[Geppili]

I also have a long term estranged sister. 20 plus years.

[billybagpuss]

she has more recently said that, even though she had blocked us, there were other ways to get in contact and that I could have visited her (she lived 200 miles away)

This is so sad, I fear she is one very unhappy young lady, but you can’t run your life being controlled by her you must prioritise your own emotional health and the rest of your family, gently gently with dd1

[Albinoni]

Thank you so much kitty for your extremely perceptive analysis and sound advice. I am also keeping everything crossed that the course will be a turning point for DD.

Maybe - interesting that you should say that, as SIL's DPs told DD that he was 'difficult'. He has on occasions gone NC with his own parents, albeit only for short periods and it is also a tactic which he used on my DD, which upset her greatly.

billy, I don't actually think that she is unhappy and I really hope that she isn't, but she is in difficult situation potentially, I think. I just need to be calm, play it by ear, don't let her affect other family relationships, keep channels of communication as open as possible, and be there for her if she needs me. I can't do anything more and worrying is futile.