Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

She thinks it is ludicrous that someone should expect to come out of university with a house bought and paid for

Op I think both you and your daughter have a dysfunctional relationship with money. I would not assist my very young student daughter (who has never worked) to buy a house with a casual boyfriend.

You know that money has led to an estrangement yet you are offering more. And it doesn't sound like these young people actually need it.

OP, this is bizarre.

You have a strange relationship with money. Did you earn your own cash that you are giving away?

Please understand It is possible to reconcile with family members without giving them money

Your posts come across as though money is an essential part of all family relationships. It isn’t. They are adults.

Yes, DH and I earned our money. We are comfortable but not rich. I have never been gifted or inherited any money.

I wanted to help DD to buy a house with now SIL to give her a good start in life and SIL was not a casual boyfriend. Many parents help their DC by giving money for deposits etc, so I don't think it's that unusual.

However, I do agree that this whole house business has contaminated the relationship. I also agree entirely that money has no place in healthy relationships. I am not planning to give DD money as such, but to help fund her on a course which I think will be beneficial.

How much more money - on top of her tax free £26k bursary (worth £34k gross), income from a rental property and SIL salary/£26k tax free bursary - are they asking for?

@billybagpuss thank you for the link to the other thread. I will have a good read over there shortly.

@Albinoni so much of what is happening with your DD is similar to what has happened over the years in my family. Someone mentioned about your DGC becoming "pay per view" children. This is what I see my DGC as being. As long as I am paying over money I can see the DGC. I must also do as I am told. Accept whatever kind of SIL is on the scene. I must provide household furniture as "requested".

It is sad and I think wrong for DGC to be used as leverage. To avoid this I am no longer giving in to "requests" for anything.

Guard yourself and don't let your other DDs think this is the way to get through life. They claim to be able to see through it that DD is as equally involved in getting money from you as SIL. It may be a different story once some chancey male gets his hooks into them too.

wow... just wow..

OP you are being RINSED big time ...

I would disagree he wasn't a casual boyfriend. How old was your dd when you offered money for a house? You say your dd was young and was in her second year at uni. That is definitely not the time for young women to be tied into a huge financial arrangement with a boyfriend and most people would discourage such a commitment at that age.

Again , I think you need to examine your attitude towards money. Your dd owns 2 properties, has a generous bursary and you are now simply enabling them.

When your dd has never worked and feels entitled to other people's cash your financial support is actually harming her.

I am NC with my family and I'd never dream of contacting them for money.
Your post drips with pain, I can just feel it from reading it. Your daughter is very fortunate to have you and she needs you more than ever as he is abusive and manipulative.
I haven't reconciled and doubt we ever will however I think involving someone with experience to talk to and mediate might be helpful. You may want to get support for yourself first before mentioning counselling to her. There is a charity for no contact people that might be able to point you in the right direction you probably have seen this but just in case here it is
www.standalone.org.uk/guides/parents/

Kitty - We have agreed to pay her rent so that she can relocate for a year and do the course. Nothing else has been offered and I assume that she will take out the government loans. I am happy to help with some other things necessary for her to undertake the course, such as text books, a computer etc, but nothing has been discussed in detail. Obviously, the focus is on the imminent arrival of the new baby.

Sprouts, a lot of people meet their life partners at university and it seemed better to buy a property rather than that they should pay rent. SIL wasn't her first bf, she had been in a four year relationship with a lovely man, 3-4 years older, with whom she ended the relationship when she met SIL, so she wasn't naive, and it was clearly very serious. They were obviously planning to live together and the Deed of Trust was to protect the legal position on the house if things turned sour. I did not foresee how it would turn out and it goes without saying that I made a big mistake - agreeing to help buy the property was the biggest mistake of my life and not proceeding was the second biggest mistake. But what is done is done, I can't change things that have happened, and I need to look forwards. I have done so much soul searching and self blaming but it doesn't help, it just paralyses me to the extent where it stops me functioning properly and sucks the joy out of everything else. That's why I started the thread, to seek some advice about how you recover from estrangement and how to avoid regret and bitterness, how to repair things and move forwards.

Bouquets and William, thank you for your kind words. It is helpful to hear from people who have been or remain estranged, so that I might avoid some pitfalls. I am not sure that they would agree to counselling, in fact, upon reflection, I am pretty sure that SIL would not agree. I suppose that I just need to take things slowly, to be positive as much as I can be, but to try not to make myself too vulnerable.

Why did you agree to pay her rent and for a year?.

You are being well and truly rinsed by this abusive man and his manipulative partner in crime, that being his sister. It was indeed a sad day when your own daughter came across these two and she was targeted because they saw something within her they can and have indeed exploited to their own ends. They will further go on to bleed her dry and take you down financially with them. You need to permanently close the bank of mum and dad here and not pay for anything even text books.

Unless your daughter decides for her own self that yes she is indeed being controlled by these two and wants out, there is nothing you can do and pray that one day she sees sense. I also agree that your grandchild will be used by them as leverage against you in a form of pay per view of this child. Abuse like she is experiencing now will take a long time, years even, to recover from if she does manage to escape them.

If she can indeed relocate that would be good but they will in all likelihood go with her and their influence remains strong in any event. She is really their muse to them being the Svengalis here.

Thanks Attila, for your advice. I think you may well be right about SIL, but his sister is not involved, as far as I am aware. DD says she is very happy, so I sometimes wonder if I am wrong about SIL, but I do think he could put up with DD's family, even if he doesn't like us, for her sake. We have always got on with all of our DDs' friends and boyfriends apart from him.

I want to encourage her to do the course but logistically I wonder if she will cope. I need to have a frank conversation with her and make it clear that we will not be prepared to pay for the privilege of a relationship with the DGDs. If I get the chance to talk to her that is. He seems to be there all the time, like a gaoler. If he had a job, at least I could see her during the day when he was at work. Anyway, all focus has to be on the baby for now - it is not the time for saying anything but congratulations - assuming and praying that all goes well.

OP a life’s lesson would be not to give her the money. She’s had it all, two house, two kids, a wedding... come on woman you are being totally rinsed!

People need to work for this shit? You’re just a cash cow. You didn’t even know you had a grandchild. You didn’t even know your own child got married. And here they are, with the audacity to ask for money?

I do struggle to see why they need more money.

Surely DD’s husband could easily find a TA role in a school to support them all, even if he doesn’t actually want to teach?

I would have thought the bursary would cover text books. If it doesn't maybe her work shy husband could get a job. Nearly all posters agree that she is in a extremely good financial position and does not need financial support, yet you are insistent that you are going to provide it. I really wonder why this is?

What need in you does it fulfill to take on this role with her? She's a fully functioning adult with children and a husband. She's not living in poverty. In some ways you are treating her like an incompetent child. Do you not think her capable of buying her own textbooks or managing her own money? Because she sounds pretty savvy to me.

I mentioned previously that I had spent a lot of time on forums for estranged families. A common theme is that many of those family members were extremely committed and had gone above and beyond parental expectations, often to their own detriment. It's rarely appreciated in the way those parents hoped because of instead of supporting they were unwittingly creating an unhealthy codependent relationship.

I'm not criticising you op, Ive done this myself and it took me far too long to realise it.

It is not good for either of you for your daughter to be financially dependent on you. Being dependent on someone else is a one down position and it's not surprising that they eventually resent being in that position and act out.

You cannot have an equal relationship with her while you are financially supporting her. Nearly everyone agrees that there is no real financial need here. What is quite obvious is that you seem to have an emotional need to financially support her, and that's hurting you both.

I think it would be helpful for you to explore where this need comes from. Were you poor when you were young? Have you been taught your value comes from being generous?

OP - here is the link to WA - how to help - you may have seen this already:

www.womensaid.org.uk/the-survivors-handbook/im-worried-about-someone-else/

Hi @Albinoni. I feel for you, because you have made some really hard decisions over the years, and when money and family and hard decisions mix, it's really hard to see things clearly, I think.

What strikes me is that the SIL seems to have very little self-respect. I was thinking about the threads one sees on here about non-working (usually male) partners contributing very little in terms of help and money, and he, as far as I can see, doesn't work, and doesn't do much family stuff either. I will come back to that!

Reading all the thread, I veered between thinking your DD is an innocent and being manipulated, and thinking that she is aware of exactly what's going on. I felt this particularly when you said that, once you put down a boundary, (when you got the photos and said you couldn't put yourself through that again), you had an immediate reaction from your DD: she was incredibly upset, you said, emotional, and wanted you to have a place in the DGCs lives. It could be seen like that, but it could also be seen as an awareness that she had finally pushed too far, and you might not provide the support (in all ways) that they have both come to rely on.

I imagine that you too must, as must your other DDs and your DH, openly or otherwise, have doubts about what's happening, about who is in control here, and wonder if your DD is manipulating you.

I have no answers, I'm sorry, save to say that no reasonable person bribes their parents with DGC time. ANd that in my experience, boundaries need to be set, and kept, and counselling attended whilst there is, as there will be, fall out.

Back to my first point: my DD2 lives with, has 2 children with, a bloke I don't' respect, not least because he has form for being physically abusive, and is currently, I think, financially abusive. They live hand to mouth, in circumstances I would find really difficult and I don't understand her, I don't understand why she doesn't want more for herself and for her children. I raise this just to say, I don't get it, as you don't re your DD, but it's not mine to get, or to bear.

I think if I were your friend, I'd want to you protect yourself a bit, just in case.

Great post Theo - protect yourself and your other relationships and pace yourself by making sure you have restorative things in place - yoga/mindfulness, other distractions and fun.....as well as your own counselling so that you can do all of the “detached love” and weather the inevitable storms over the longer term. Hard road

Op I remember your old threads.
There are so many alarm bells ringing about LB. The thought of him getting your dd somewhere off grid, friendless, is horrible. How will he cope with her getting a job ? I don’t think he will cope, because she will mature.
From what you have said she has been in a relationship since she was about 16, as she went from one relationship straight to this man ? She has never been an adult single person ? She sounds like someone sucked in by a cult.

I am interested in his parents. When are you meeting them ?

I really feel for you. It must be absolutely horrendous to be in this situation, to have a dd marry and have a child, without telling you. Lobster Boy sounds vile. The control, the refusal to make any effort for your dd. That is not love, that is ownership. I think she is so brainwashed that she can’t see it. I hope very much that she eventually does.

Hi OP.

You've asked 'reconciliation after estrangement?'.

So yes - I didn't speak to my dad for nearly two years. He'd let me down too many times, and I just decided to protect myself from that. We are now 'absolutely fine' - I love him dearly, as he does me - he comes to stay now and then - we speak fairly regularly on the phone.

I was the one who brought contact back - when it was okay for me, and when I'd processed some of my anger. As I said, I love him dearly - but when someone lets you down, they've let you down, and they always will have. That said, I'm old enough and wise enough now to have let many people down myself, and to know that I will in the future.

So yes, you can recover from estrangement, but it's not the same as before - because basically your relationship, for one reason or another, has gone through a fundamental rupture. It might not be the same, but it can be just as strong, and just as fundamental.

But one thing is essential - to rebuild your relationship, you need to both come at it from a position of cautious openness, respect and love. I'm afraid your daughter doesn't seem to be doing that, and I'm very sorry for your situation.

He sounds very self centred with a volatile temper. The thought of him teaching a class full of innocent kids makes my hair stand on end! How long before he loses his temper in the classroom!!

Thank you so much for all of these replies and helpful comments, which I am just processing before replying. You have given me a lot to think about.

Having read your previous thread and this one, I feel you are failing to see your other daughters. I think you need to cut all financial support to DD1 who is rinsing you beyond belief and focus your time and attention on your other daughters. DD1 is a willing participant in the mind games her husband carries out. Concealing a grandchild from you is the shittest things I have ever heard. It’s just cruel. She only crawls out of the woodwork when she wants money and will dangle those poor children like a carrot. Don’t engage in their horrendous manipulation of you.

I have re-read the thread and, to add to what I have already said, I don't think you should give them any further money. You have already given them a significant amount to buy the second property.

I suspect that the relationship lasts because it is not subject to ordinary pressures and strains, including financial pressures. Her H is around all the time because he doesn't need to work. He can therefore keep an eye on her and can also present a much better view of himself that helps to keep his relationship sweet ('Look at me, such a good husband and father, here for you all the time!). I am not remotely surprised that he didn't want to teach: schools are hierarchical organisations and slotting into that kind of system probably doesn't fit with his view of himself. He probably views himself as some kind of FIRE guru, never working for 'the man', answerable to no one, retiring early and living off the land. This link gives an idea of what I am talking about:

www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/22/selling-the-dream-how-to-make-your-spouse-love-frugality/

By the way, the author of this blog is quite appealing in many ways but it is worth noting that his own marriage recently broke down.

The more money you give them the more you will be enabling your son-in-law to live out his dreams. Let him get back to work and see how he copes with the stresses and strains of ordinary life.

I agree that giving money is just facilitating and enabling the relationship to endure. It is making it all too artificially comfortable. They have contrived a non working lifestyle funded by others.

They need to get stressed, v uncomfortable, not be able to cope - that’s when she has any chance of leaving - when it all falls apart.

However - I do see a major opportunity to undermine his isolation of her - where she is at college and/or working and the children are at nursery - and if this required cash support for her to be able to do it.....it might be worth a last throw if the dice.