Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

I'm intrigued as to why she sees him as the head of the household too? Is he from a Christian family maybe?

Oh OP. This is heartbreaking. I was in the thrall of someone at a similar age and can see how it could have gone this way- I remember him once saying we would be better off if all of my family and close friends died in some kind of fell swoop so that it would “just be us” and I could “focus on him”. Batshit. Events conspired to mean that we split up and the scales fell from my eyes after I found some info about him that was a huge wake up call (and proved him a liar) and I thank God for it because he wanted me on my own and to himself and it would have been no life.

I don’t know if this has been asked elsewhere and if so I apologise, but is your SIL involved in some kind of extremeLy conservative religion? The only other place I’ve ever observed this kind of control from a husband to a wife was in my aunt who’s a Jehovahs Witness. They also seem very young to be married with two kids unless that’s normal where you live? It certainly isn’t where I live (London) with most marriages happening from about 28-34. My aunt also did whatever my uncle said and would not question it, however bonkers it was.

As hard as it is I think you have to protect yourself and your other daughters first and foremost. I’m also very surprised by the fact that your daughter and SIL seem to think they don’t need to work. That’s highly irregular in the circles I mix in- I was about their age ten years ago and after uni everyone I knew did some kind of paid work. As for the PGCE, as a teacher (who’s married to a teacher) I can’t see how she won’t crash and burn pretty fast. The PGCE year is tough and I struggled without any kids. I now have two under fives and can’t imagine doing it with them in tow.

Good luck with everything OP. Keep strong.

Then, yesterday afternoon, I received a text from him - only the second in about three years - to say that DD1 and baby were both fine and he was taking them home.

This has given me the chills. Looks to me like he has worked out that she called you when he was out of earshot - that would have ramped up his paranoia and rage. This to me his him asserting his power and control - telling you that he is driving this.

It’s also v odd that you would not see a new baby when they are born - especially this time of the year - again I see this as his power and punishment trip - they are giving you “crumbs” - and they even take back some of the crumbs - so with DGD2 looks like they said come when she is a month old (that’s denying you meeting a new born) - now they are saying push it back to Feb. And you have never even met DGD1 and she will probably be nearly 18 months by Feb.

They are playing you here. They are yanking your chain. I bet the visit will be called off at the last minute.

I would be v careful of any communication with his DPs - one of them is like him.

What was the original conflict about OP? You know, the bit just before your dd declared her partner to be 'her family'? Specific rather than vague please.

I've never seen a thread from an estranged parent on here where that pivotal moment wasn't a glaring omission!

And yet, when you see the threads from estranged daughters, that catalyst is usually the central focus.

I'm not saying your daughter's partner isn't controlling, but it's very unusual for a woman to get into that kind of relationship and stay in it unless he subconsciously reminds her of one or more of her parents. They choose their victims very carefully. I speak from experience.

I think the OP has been very specific about it on a previous thread, ruffle.

OP I commented on the original lobster thread... (namechanged many times since) and we had a little chat about how I had lived in a gorgeous uni city that we all adored and how (my group of friends and I) had never gone back and none of us had ended up living there... life had moved on.

I’m so horrified at how things have worked out for her. I recently spent a lot of time talking with a reasonably wealthy mc family who are STILL funding their charming but utterly manipulative ds to the tune now of a flat in London and a large deposit for a massive house... they can afford the money, but it’s the dynamic set up by the constant cycle of requests, goalpost changing, ‘oh we changed our life plan to a better one so you’d be cruel to not facilitate us this one last time’ that has been so painful for them. But they’ve created a sort of Aesop’s fable monster of him - he does it because despite the cries and the recriminations and the never agains, they always always help him in the end. They sit around fretting about it and talking about it for hours. He’s 45 btw. There have been countless needs and schemes for the past 27 years. He’s like a deer, he goes to the salt lick, the salt lick is always there, so he always comes back for more. Why wouldn’t he?

They say to me like I’m some kind of miracle ‘how, HOW have you managed to do so much on your own???’

Er, because my loving supportive parents took one look at me after graduation and said, we love you dear, congrats on being a well-educated privileged person, always here for you emotionally, good luck professionally. They helped out with the odd loan of £1k or so at crisis points in london in my twenties, but by and large they gave me the gift of resourcefulness, self-reliance and resilience.

I think the idea of you directly paying childcare to the provider is possibly a good one as it prevents him pulling the rug from under her feet... but even given that she’s in a shit relationship, you’re talking about a young woman with two properties, a two large bursaries between them, good educations, starting a course in a sought after area... she doesn’t need more money from you right now. Put it away in a safe place for when she’s thirty-five and needs a solicitor to get away from him. Don’t enable him now.

Practice a loving, firm line - oh darling we’d LOVE to help, but your sisters have needed support too just like you received, and between the three of you, your father and I have absolutely nothing left to spare right now, we are poor retired things, actually with your mortgage free properties and excellent bursaries you are probably better off than us haha!

You are sending a message straight back to him. Make it very clear. Love, affection, no more cash. You are damaging your dd by giving it.

Also, just practically, if she’s getting over 2k a month (still leaving a couple of grand for a laptop and books), plus they’ll have the rent from their own properties (maybe another grand? He has no other earnings so will pay no tax?) why on earth would you need to pay their rent?!?

I can't really give you any sensible advice or advice that you want to hear because I think her H is just fleecing you through your DD. You will never see that money again.
Why isn't the scum bag working to provide for his TWO children.
SiL can bugger off too. She seems very keen to tell you what to do.
I'm afraid if that was me I'd not give either of them a penny and I'd be asking why her husband isn't providing for her if he's such a big shot.
Hopefully one day she will see through his shit and come home.
They are after your money and nothing else. Sorry.

madcat “SIL” means son in law on this thread.

Goodness me, what a mess!! How have they managed to claim benefits if a) they've just been given a 'loan' of £26 k and b) own 2 properties?? And why on earth are both properties in HIS sole name?? You have truly been screwed over and will be 'dumped' the moment you no longer serve a purpose I feel. Guard your money and your heart very very catefully!!!

RuffleCrow i disagree with this. I was stuck in a terrible, controlling relationship for a few years in my early twenties. I know of other women too, and none of us had an over-controlling or bullying parent. I had a very kind Mum and Dad who had an exceptionally happy marriage, and I think that made me less able to see the red flags, as I had never seen a controlling or abusive relationship growing up.

Thank you for all of your replies, especially at a time when you are probably all so busy.

First, regarding DD's health, I am worried it would backfire if I said something and DD has sent me a couple of messages to say that she is resting and improving, but there is some way to go. She is on strong painkillers and antibiotics. I have thought of visiting and part of me wants to jump on the next train, and of course I would want to help her in any way I could - but I know that an unscheduled visit would cause stress to her at a time when she needs to rest and get her strength back.

I have not yet met DGD1, who is now nearly 18 months old, and DD has said that it will be 'very emotional' when I do. She has also had a long conversation with DH in which they agreed that the dynamic could be 'tricky'. I have never visited her house and she did not even give us her address until earlier this year. She seems to be anxious about what we will do when we visit, as she has mentioned this a couple of times. I have said we don't want you to entertain us, we just want to meet DGDs and spend time together, read to DGD1, help bath DGD2, all very low key, we don't want to impose on you in any way. She said we can 'see the house', and go for a walk, so I am wondering if SIL has said that we can have a quick look around the house and a cup of tea, but that is all. She mentioned visiting some steam railway, which seemed a bit random, but now I think maybe she just wants to find somewhere to go, away from the house, because he doesn't want us there. My gut feeling is that he bears a grudge for the time when I made him leave our house, so we are not welcome in 'his' house. The situation will be further complicated if she can't drive. So, I think it is better to wait a few weeks and agree a specific date.

Rachel, I think you may well be right that SIL has Aspergers and he also told DD that he thinks he does. I don't want to put labels on things which I don't fully understand but, for example, SIL has very high cognitive skills (first class engineering degree) but struggles in other areas, particularly in engaging socially or in areas of emotional intelligence. I think this is why he tries to analyse people in a scientific way - by reading books and applying the relevant criteria in order to reach a character analysis. However, having reached the conclusion, he is convinced that he is right - everyone is black and white to him, there are no shades of grey. He liked me until the time I made him leave the house and withdrew from the property transaction, but now he sees me and the rest of the family very much in 'black' terms.

I would say that there is also an element of paranoia. They spend a lot of time reading and watching programmes about conspiracy theories, which they believe. DD said the reason that they did not give us their address to start with was that we might try to get their house because we were lawyers, and they did not tell us about DGD1 in case we tried to take her off them.

SIL is not religious at all, but he has far right political views and I would say that he also has misogynistic views. DD and he have a relationship where she does all of the traditional 'wifely' work and he like working on the house, quite complicated DIY projects, which he takes a long time over, but I assume does well. DD seems to look up to him and he regards himself as her protector. He intervened with the tenants in the house she lived in, even though he wasn't a tenant, and now he wants to protect her from her family, at least that's how it seems to me.

Malta, I am sorry to hear about your experience but so pleased that you managed to escape. DD was brought up in London/SE and is the first of her contemporaries to either marry or have a child. SIL and DD live in the NE now (He doesn't like 'posh southerners' or 'yuppies' ). I share your concerns as to whether she will cope with the course apart from uprooting SIL, two very young DC and two dogs to the other end of the country.

Ruffle, I take your point, but DH and I have been happily married for many years and I would describe us as very much equal partners. DD2 and DD3 are both strong and independently minded individuals, who are baffled by DD1's relationship as well as being deeply hurt by her rejection of them, as they used to be close.

Earlgrey, you have a very good memory and thank you for sharing your friend's experience as well as for your support. I think your advice is very sensible.

heyday, I honestly don't know how they managed to live off benefits for so long, although the second property has only recently been purchased. They have no mortgage on the house they live in, so have never claimed housing benefit, but I suppose they would have obtained jobseekers' allowance and now they will have child benefit. I don't know but I assume that now that they have the second property they will not be entitled to some benefits as they will be over the relevant threshold. They do live very frugally, although they run a car. I am in despair about it, to be honest, as I have never claimed benefits, always worked, and feel strongly that they are there for the most vulnerable and needy in society. I agree that SIL needs to get a job and meet his responsibilities now he has a young family. He has done nothing since completing his BSc in 2014, apart from a six month stint with an engineering firm before quitting, as he doesn't want to be an engineer, a Master's degree which he gave up after one term, and his PGCE, but he has now decided that he doesn't want to be a teacher.

With respect @SirVixofVixHall, you're the exception rather than the rule.

For most women in abusive relationships (myself included) it was our adverse childhood experiences that primed us from birth to accept the unacceptable in our adult relationships.

OP I'm sensing the welfare benefits are a particular issue for you, as much as anything else. Why is that?

Ruffle, I am sorry to hear of your adverse childhood experiences and that you subsequently ended up in an abusive relationship, but I hope that you are ok now.

I mentioned welfare benefits in response to a previous poster, as a number of posters have raised the issue of DD and SIL's finances. This is not intended to be a thread about welfare benefits, it is about how to steer a path towards reconciliation with my DD.

Ok OP, I wish you all the best, but as with all mn threads we only ever hear one side of the story. If you ask my mother she will describe my childhood in idyllic terms because that's her perspective. It doesn't match up to what i experienced. She also has other children she considers happy and well adjusted and 'proof' of my own happy childhood. I think some self-reflection would serve you well. If you really want to heal things between you, you need to look honestly at the reasons why any young woman would turn away from her family and towards an abusive and controlling man. It is extremely rare that content, well-grounded women from happy families end up with these men. Generally speaking, they choose their victims very carefully, testing the waters to see how much they will put up with. To see what her baseline for 'normal' is.

Sounds so tricky. Just wanted to give you 💐

I just think DD1 has been very unlucky in getting involved with LB at such an impressionable age, having children with him quickly and getting into a situation it will be very difficult for her (and her DC) to break-away from. I don’t think she got involved with him due to her upbringing as a child, she was just unlucky.

I would not in any circumstances report them re fraudulently claiming benefits. I’m sure LB has arranged it so the benefits are in her name so she cops any DWP stuff/possible investigations (but going into a bank account he controls). I would hazard a guess that child benefits go to him too.

I would also be surprised if they are legally married - I can see him belonging to some weird church where they got married “in the eyes of his church” but without a marriage certificate (so if she leaves he keeps the houses).

I think the best you can do in the circumstances is quietly keep doing what you have been - keep in contact with her following her lead, arrange this meeting away from “his” house (so as not to provoke him) and the next time he asks for money gently tell him “we did give you £x for the house/s in the past but sadly no spare cash”.

...spare cash any more to “lend/give” you.

I agree with @GhostonToast - Yes, a difficult childhood can make people more vulnerable to abusers, but also it can happen to any woman unlucky enough to meet the wrong guy.

' I have thought of visiting and part of me wants to jump on the next train, and of course I would want to help her in any way I could - but I know that an unscheduled visit would cause stress to her at a time when she needs to rest and get her strength back.'

@Albinoni How about asking her if she'd like you to come up and visit/help out? Even if she says no, I think she'll appreciate that you asked, and it'd help your relationship.

I disagree that it is extremely rare for young women from happy backgrounds to end up with abusive men.
The single thing that women in abusive relationships have in common, is that they happened to meet someone who, although initially charming, turned out to be abusive. It can literally happen to anyone, and although I think being young and having not much experience is perhaps a risk factor, older women also end up in coercive relationships. Look at someone like Katie Piper, who had known her abuser only a short time, and has a loving family. Any woman could potentially end up with an abusive man.
The blame for abuse lies with the abuser, and solely with the abuser.

It is obvious OP that you are a very caring and kind mother.

It's not about absolutes and it's not about shifting blame. You might not feel it chimes with your own personal experience but then again it doesn't have to.

Anyone can meet an abuser but those who stay with an abuser usually believe on some level they can 'fix' him and the subconscious motivation from this generally comes from unresolved from unresolved childhood trauma. This combines with the familiarity of living in constant fear, which has perversely been shown to equal 'safety' in the subconscious minds of many survivors of ACE. That might not be your personal experience but research has shown it to be the usual pattern. I've spent 6 years trying to heal from DV and read pretty much everything there is to read on the subject. It's not really something that's in dispute amongst DV professionals, sorry @sirvix

There's a Facebook group 'Asperger marriage instant help' which might be of interest to you. It's full of mainly neurotypical women who struggle in relationships with partners who have many of the character traits you've mentioned. My DH has a very strong work ethic but many don't it seems and flit from one thing to another with nothing being seemingly good enough for them. (I've learnt a lot from the group.) I strongly suspect that your SILs father also has the same condition as his DS which will make it harder for your DD as it normalises the behaviour unfortunately.

Thank you for the comments and for the user.

Rachel, that sounds a very helpful group. My best friend has been in a long term relationship with someone with undiagnosed Aspergers, and she has shared with me a lot of the struggles she has faced, so I definitely see the similarities. Her DP has never worked, so she has supported him financially for many years, he did photography but didn't want to sell his work, is always wanting to move to another house, another country, doesn't want to socialise or have visitors to the house, never settles etc. It has been a long hard road for her and often precarious financially, although there were no DC involved.

Assuming that SIL does have Aspergers then we are looking at a different scenario and hopefully not abusive, but which brings its own complications.

What was DD1 long term RS like with her previous bf? Think you said that RS started when she was 16 and that he was 4 years older than her?
Did she go directly from that RS to this one?
Did you have any inkling that that RS was tricky - I am just wondering if LB was an escape route?

The more you talk about him the more I think that a significant personality disorder may be at play. The conspiracy stuff, isolation, suspicion of everyone suggests paranoid type. If so this will continue to grow and grow without intervention and his life choices will become more and more isolationist and extreme. I would do some research on PDs and consider the traits that apply to him. I would drip feed Qs referencing specific behaviours and incidents related to him in general interacting with the outside world and ask her if that concerns her over time. Keep it generic to the PD traits and not specific to him. Like a disease. The aim is to show her that he is the common denominator by falling out with everyone who crosses his path. And that these are classic symptoms of PD x, y or z - and that he is suffering through this and there is help to relieve this.

Throw the net wider and away from their RS as she will be v defensive and vulnerable of that and currently she sees him as protective of her.

If you read up on PD you will see that this will end up in a MH crisis once he runs out of road as his actions are self fulfilling and exacerbate his condition. Even if he achieves his cut off from the world ambition - he will still be v dissatisfied and as he has no one else to blame your DD and DGDs will be even more in the firing line.

It’s a real tight rope because bat any moment he could slam the door shut again, move the family and not tell you where they are. In fact on reflection he is probably plotting the timing of this right now for maximum impact and hurt.

I think that if you do loads of reading about DV, coercive control and PD - you will be informed on the big picture and the likely trajectory. You will be less surprised (ie shocked, hurt, immobilised) by each crazy manoeuvre and will be better placed to respond calmly. There will be a day when this all comes to a head - and it is more likely to be triggered by someone else rather than you (health visitor, children school, DD1 work colleague etc) - so you just need to be ready with an open heart and open door. But also know that DV victims often return again on average 7 times.

PS: I don’t appreciate this jump to labelling of ASD when people are behaving shockingly. It’s offensive and blatantly wrong - it would be as ridiculous as saying his nasty controlling behaviours are because he is black!