Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

[springydaff]

Whether or not she has got back in touch for financial reasons, at his instigation, she is back in touch. That's the important thing. That's the miracle. Yay!

You are all victims of the same person: a very disordered and frightening person. Please hear me when I say you are (all) taking this too personally - it really isn't about you or your relationship with her, it's about him. She is essentially in a cult of two: he the leader, she the brainwashed proselyte.

It's not easy to bear. The grief is immense. But do have a look at Joshua Coleman who perfectly addresses the situation you are in - and provides essential support and effective strategies to manage this awful situation.

Normal rules don't apply in a situation like this - some of the advice just doesn't recognise the deep complexities of this, in which your DD has effectively been kidnapped and you're being asked to pay the ransom - which of course you would, even though it may fail because the kidnapper hold all the cards. You'd still jump when he/they say so because you're doing it for her. But I also agree with Kitty that eg al-anon is wonderful for learning how to detach with love. Rock and a hard place.

Do you have a faith? If so, pray. If not, still pray to a god of your imagination

[springydaff]

Coleman's book

Btw The site I've linked, above, forces you to sign up to his emails which is very pesky but, actually, his emails are worth it!

[Frenchw1fe]

Give love and support but not money.
I cannot overestimate the importance of treating your other dd's fairly.
My db and sil took every spare penny my dm had. She still rarely saw her dgc.
38 years and nothing changed until my sil died!
Now dm has a good relationship with db but she is literally broke. Which just proves that giving the money made things worse not better.
Being in your 80's with no savings on basic pension absolutely sucks. And guess who has to help dm out now? And no its not my db.

[LannisterLion1]

I think your dds know their sister best and you should heed their caution if they think she's manipulative too. While i agree SIL sounds very manipulative and controlling, using your money to fund himself, she sounds similar too. It's possible to be manipulated and manipulative towards someone else at the same time.

Asking for money so soon? They've fleeced you sadly. Now in constant contact suggests she's trying to keep a foothold of control over you. Be very cautious. No more money and write off what you've lent as you wont get it back. Everything is on her terms, in a genuine reconciliation this is not the case.

[Ghostontoast]

When it comes to giving money to help with house purchases, you should be able to treat all your DC fairly, which you won't be able to do as so much has been handed over to the eldest and now is under the control of SIL. He has used your DD1 to get a large sum of money out of you, and although she is being manipulated by him she is in turn manipulating you on a grand scale, getting you to agree to lend more money then telling you that she had a 14 month old child.

I agree that you should "give love and support and not money", and not meet the the PILs at the same time you see your DGC for the first time.

There are going to be so many more demands for money - for the rental (deposit and first month's rent, removal costs), she needs a car to get to college, then it will be to fund childcare (fancy Montessori of his choosing not just 15 free hours) while she is doing a PGCE, then the oldest child will be "gifted" and need to go to a private school/tutoring, then they will need to buy land for their self-sufficiency plan, someone in his family will need expensive overseas medical treatment etc. etc. You need to say gently the next time the begging bowl is out that "sadly, you are unable to help them with money" . They will press you why this is the case (don't tell them anything about any savings you have left if you can), and try to make you feel bad about not "lending" more. They will then suggest that now is the time to downsize and free up some money (for him!).

It is so sad that your eldest can't even keep I'm touch with her siblings, outside of the relationship with you. I imagine that she is not allowed to keep in touch with any of her childhood or uni friends (unless they were his friends first), and will have to have as many children as he wants (from memory was he the one who wouldn't let her use contraception and he wouldn't use condoms?). So sad for her life.

[Ghostontoast]

Sorry I missed the bit where you had agreed to give them more money for the rent/move/childcare (surely that it what the bursary is for! not to mention rent they are getting from tenants).

[Albinoni]

Thank you for all of your kind messages and to Springy for the book recommendation - I will definitely check it out. I feel that I am in uncharted territory, so all of this is very helpful.

I fully take on board the comments by some posters that it is essential not to neglect the younger DDs, who have been so wonderfully loving and supportive. They are still both receiving financial support, as they are both at university, although DD2 has some funding. We are also all very close, are in touch daily, see each other very regularly, and give each other a lot of love and emotional support. I think it's true to say that they do know their sister well and are probably more objective than I sometimes am, as I can become blinded by emotion. Nevertheless, they have been very deeply hurt by DD1's treatment of them in abruptly cutting them off. I agree with Ghost that it's a shame that she hasn't kept in touch - who knows about the future? It would be sad if they didn't get to know their nieces and I also feel that DD1 and SIL are depriving their daughters of half of her family, who would love them and be there for them.

DD1 has been manipulative in the past, to be honest, but only in the way that children can be, trying to persuade their parents to give them something, such as a pet. She has used persuasion and argument, but never emotional blackmail.

[billybagpuss]

Just wanted to wish you all the best for the next couple of weeks @Albinoni as it must be difficult trying to navigate it all keeping the balance right 💐

[Mintypylonsfryingsurplus]

@Albinoni this is such a sad thread and cant imagine the pain you are going through. I hope you are getting support and being kind to yourself.
This situation is so hard but be wary of building a close relationship with your GC in case you get your heart broken again.
If your daughter undertakes a PGCE there will be a lot of training on safeguarding including the many forms of abuse such as financial and emotional. I hope that this 'triggers' some understanding of what she is doing to you ( albeit through her LB)
Also maybe having children has changed her to think " what if my children dont talk to me in 20 odd years time ?"
But I totally agree with other posters stop buying her love and attention treating her like the prodigal daughter is harmful to you other family members.
What if you were a broke disabled person? Really had no money to give? Only love and support to offer. You cant buy someones love or attention. The lack of respect is really clear.
This drop and pick up dance could go on for years. My concern is then LB will influence the GC once they are old enough to use and abuse you.
You can love your DD without enabling her to abuse you all. Tell her you want a relationship with her based on mutual love respect and understanding. Build on that without money and then bond with GC if you can see real change.
It is so sad but your DD is an adult and the abuse towards you ( because she does have a choice) is unforgiveable x

[Gutterton]

Has baby no2 been born yet OP?

[Albinoni]

Billy and Minty, thank you so much for your kind words. I totally agree that any future relationship must be based on mutual love, respect and understanding. It must not be further contaminated with money - it is better to wait longer for a reconciliation, if there is to be one, than to patch things up and never address the underlying issues. Otherwise, there is the risk of estrangement happening again and I just can't through it all again.

DD2 and DD3 and I went out for lunch yesterday before visiting MIL. It was a lovely day, we were all happy and loving, even singing together as we went down the street. It was quite magical, what Christmas is or should be, ideally. We care for each other deeply and I know that they would always be there for me or each other and they are always keen to visit Granny and love her. There is no way that I want to risk losing any of that by treating DD1 as a prodigal DD. She has hurt all of us very, very badly. I can't understand any of it, really. She has acted as though she just doesn't care about any of us, including her close friends. I exchange Christmas cards with the parents of her former best friend of many years and none of them knew about the babies either.

Does DD1 love me or respect me? I really don't know. I feel that I know her as only a parent can, but at the same time she has become a stranger. It's really odd and I am anxious as to how it will be when I see her, and I am sure that she feels the same. If I look at the sequence of events over the last few years, and I have only included some of the information, but there is a definite pattern. some of it seems like emotional abuse - the withdrawal of communication and then conversations about money. But when I speak to DD1 she sounds emotional, not cold, but there is a definite undercurrent of resentment below the surface.

I think that when SIL came to stay, he thought that we were wealthier than we are, but that was before we retired. We have since moved to a much smaller income and have substantially downsized to pay off the mortgage. Don't get me wrong, we are very fortunate in lots of ways, but we need to make provision for our own future, may need care homes etc and we don't want to be a burden on either our DC or the state. We may also need to help fund MIL's care (she has dementia) when her own funds run out.

I do tend to think that a lot of this is coming from SIL, although DD has obviously been complicit. If there was a deliberate plan to cause me emotional pain by ghosting me, for financial gain, then this is obviously something that it's quite hard to move beyond. DD2 and DD3 think that I prefer to blame SIL and I am sure that there is more than an element of truth in this. DD3, who is a very sweet and forgiving soul, said to me yesterday that she will always text messages to DD1 on important days, such as her birthday, to say that she loves her - because she does - but that she doesn't want a relationship with her right now, as she can't cope with it, DD1 been a shit sister etc. I understand how she feels. Sometimes, I just have to wait before I can reply to her messages. I know that I need to let go of all the pain but it's not easy.

In the meantime, DD1 is sending me daily messages, which are very open and natural, just as they used to be. The baby has still not yet arrived but she is going in this afternoon for another check up - the baby will be induced on Monday if she doesn't come by then. And when I get these messages, I just want to be there for her and am worried about her and the baby and I love her. But I don't speak about it with DD2 and DD3 until they ask, which they do. And then I think but, why, if you want to share all this information this time, why not last time? Do you feel guilty? Have you matured? Do you love me? Do you love your family?
And also, that SIL turned you against your whole family, so he will turn the DGDs against us all in time, and I really don't think I could bear that. We saw a baby on the next table when we were at lunch - probably 3-6 months old, adorable, and I know that we were all thinking the same thing.

[billybagpuss]

Thank you for the update @Albinoni (love your user name by the way, have played the adagio many times)

It does sound like whilst still only at the beginning of the reconciliation you are beginning to get things into perspective, pleased you had a lovely day, even if moments were tinged with different emotions.

Have a lovely Christmas and I hope things go well with the baby on Monday 💐

[Gutterton]

You are doing really well Albinoni - I think the “detached with love” approach with DD1 is the very best thing that you can do for her - dropping the rope to allow the distance, space and vacuum for her to see and feel the consequences of her role in the dynamic with SIL.

I also think that not connecting with DGDs is best for them. You know that SIL will use them to hurt you - but his withdrawal of them from you will hurt them even more as they will not have the emotional intelligence to understand and will feel abandoned and bereft.

If you are distant and not emotionally attached to them they can’t be hurt and miss you when he / she inevitably pulls this stunt. You will have taken away his power, saved yourself agony - but more importantly not allowed the DGDs to be hurt and used.

You will have the opportunity to build a deep RS with them when this is all over.

And it will be one day. And that day will be sooner once your DD1 is left with the consequences and hits her rock bottom. Any emotional safety net from you just keeps her there. It’s enabling this abuse. She needs to be exposed to the cold hard reality of him for her to finally move on.

Lovely to hear of your other DDs and MiL having precious loving times together. Keep filling up in this - don’t waste the next 5 years putting your life on hold.

[Albinoni]

Thank you billy - I love your username too. The Adagio will be my first choice if I am ever on Desert Island Discs . I have listened to it so many times, including during my recent anguish, and it never fails to comfort me. There is something so soothing about it - majestic and beautiful, whilst simultaneously speaking of the permanence and continuity and cycle of life, sadness and pain. I think it just helps me to gain perspective - all of this is overwhelming right now, but it is just a blip, a dot in an ever-changing world, that my problems are trivial in comparison with those of so many others.

More modern music which resonates, depending on my mood, is Leonard Cohen's 'A thousand kisses deep' and, if I am having a particularly bad day, Bruno Mars' 'Grenade', which includes the words -

'Take, take, take it all, but you never give....I gave you all I had, and you tossed it in the trash'.

I measure my progress by how often I listen to each piece of music - if it's the Adagio, it's a good day!

Gutterton, thank you for such a lovely supportive post.

[Interestedwoman]

Oh dear, I went through a Grenade phase over a man :) It is a great song tho.

'She has acted as though she just doesn't care about any of us, including her close friends. I exchange Christmas cards with the parents of her former best friend of many years and none of them knew about the babies either.

Does DD1 love me or respect me? I really don't know.'

Ah but you know it's not entirely personal, if she's being a bit like it to so many people. xx

You're blessed to have a loving family, and I'm sure your DD1 will be back. Look at how much she's chatting to you now, and this is just the start. Boyfriends (and husbands) come and go, but you will always be her mum, and you'll outlast him. xx

[Albinoni]

Thank you so much for your supportive post Interestedwoman and sorry for the delay in posting but I thought that the thread had died. I very much appreciate all that you say.

DGD2 was born in the early hours of this morning by emergency C section - it was touch and go, but fortunately DD and DGD are fine if a bit battered and bruised. I feel very emotional right now and grateful and joyful that my beloved DD and her DD are safe and well. I have to hope that all will be well but, for the moment, whatever may lie ahead, I am happy. And I wish all of you lovely friends a wonderful Christmas! x

[Gutterton]

All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well. For there is a force of love moving through the universe that will hold us fast.

Julian of Norwich “Revelations of Devine Love” written in 1376. If you don’t know about her have a google of her quotes.

DGD - so bittersweet, so stressful. Congratulations on her birth. Bide your time and you will be able to give her your unconditional love without him exploiting this and hurting her.

[Albinoni]

Thank you Gutterton. That is beautiful. Merry Christmas!

[SirVixofVixHall]

A Christmas Eve new baby, how lovely. I am glad they are both ok.
Op I have thought a lot about this situation, and I wonder how to unpick it all. Your dd sounds immature for a mother of a toddler, I imagine because LB has kept her so constrained. I think control like this is a form of brainwashing. Small children take up so much emotional and physical energy, she probably has no time to think, reflect, admit her behaviour to herself. If LB is this controlling overtly, then I dread to think what he is like to live with. She is in the same situation as someone drawn in to a cult.
There are some things you have written here, about how she has hurt you all, how she has let down her sisters and oldest friends, that are painful to read. I wonder if you should say these to her ? There is still an undercurrent of emotional blackmail in your relationship, and you need to draw a line in the sand here, and make her see the consequences. Not now, when she has just had a baby, but maybe a few months down the line. I think honesty is the only way forward. That and hoping very much that she eventually leaves this toxic man.

[Albinoni]

SirVix - thank you so much for your post, especially on Christmas Day, when you must have so much else to think about. I really appreciate it and you have understood the situation perfectly - or at least my perception of it.

Yesterday was a magical day with DH, DD2 and DD3, perfect harmony, well chosen gifts, food, drink laughter, and love. It was truly joyful but the shadow of DD1 is always slightly there.

I had a long conversation with DD1 not long after the birth, as she rang both me and DH. It was a very natural, relaxed conversation like we used to have and it struck me that she was more relaxed because he was not there. After she was moved from the labour ward, SIL had to leave, as visiting hours are restricted. Anyway, it was a long and traumatic labour, about 14 hours, before the emergency C section. She was being very brave but it all sounded fairly horrific and I asked her how long she would be staying in hospital (last time she discharged herself on the actual day of the first emergency C section). She said that the medical staff thought she should stay in about 4 nights to recover and she said that she probably would. I said that's a good idea, get plenty of rest to recover etc. We exchanged messages and she sent photos yesterday morning, all fine.

However, in her 'phone call, she seemed most concerned about SIL, how he hadn't had any sleep, food, was tired, was thinking of sleeping in the car because the hospital wouldn't let him stay, but it was too cold, how relieved she was that he had got home safely etc. She seemed more concerned about him than anything, but DGD1 had been staying with his DP and DD1 had been in hospital the previous night, so there was no reason why he couldn't have had plenty of food and sleep.

Then, yesterday afternoon, I received a text from him - only the second in about three years - to say that DD1 and baby were both fine and he was taking them home. DD1 had previously told DH that she had already prepared everything for Christmas lunch, including veg preparation etc. I doubt that she will get much rest, but what can I do? Nothing. I wish I could be there to help her but, even if I lived nearer, I know he wouldn't want me there. I am, I think, a strong person, but I feel intimidated by him, even at a distance. I feel so helpless but, she clearly loves him to the extent that whatever he says goes.

I appreciate your suggestion that I should have a frank conversation with her in a month or so, maybe when we visit. However, she reports everything back to him, and he will be looking for another reason to stop contact. At least that's how it seems to me, but sometimes I wonder if I am losing the plot. I agree that she is emotionally immature. She has never had a job, apart from a holiday job for a few weeks, and has never had to fend for herself. She is totally dependent upon him financially and in every other way.

I did send a Christmas card to his parents, fairly low key, but saying 'hello' and hope to meet them when we visit in the new year (although DD1 is now suggesting maybe it should be February). They sent a nice card back, said how pleased they were that we are visiting, hope to meet us etc. Also, how DD1and SIL are such a 'happy young couple' and such 'good, caring parents', which hurt a little because I haven't seen my DD with her DC, but it came from a good place. They must think we are appalling people that our own DD wanted to conceal her child from us.

Thank you for your replies, it helps me to hold on to my sanity a bit, to get an independent perspective.

[Gutterton]

So shocking to read this. It is v distressing - like some sort of horror movie. Just when there is a chink of light - where she might have a few hours mental vacuum and space to actually think for herself - he is panicking, obsessing and manipulative and gets her to leave hospital against the medical professionals advice.

He is now truly dangerous to her physical health as well.

If you are concerned about her physical state after the CS and are worried that he is putting her health at risk - ring the labour ward and report to Sr midwife. It can be anonymous, the ball is then in their court to act - they would coordinate and investigate with the heath visitor subtly. Professionals are trained to look out for abuse nowadays.

This might be an opportunity or the break through you need.

[Rachel1350]

I've not seen your previous threads but your SIL sounds like a more extreme version of my DH (married 20 years) - smothering, controlling engineer, thinks he's right about everything, bombards your DD with seemingly plausible and logical reasons why his way is right and she goes along with it because she loves him and isn't strong enough to stand up to him on her own. There's possibly Aspergers or something in your SIL too especially if his DPs have said he's 'difficult' and this would add an extra dynamic to relationships.

You sound a lovely family and no doubt your daughter has been brought up to be loving, kind, forgiving, loyal, faithful and to put others' needs before her own. I doubt she'd going to leave him anytime soon. There may also be depression etc. at play too if she's going along with things she's not comfortable with and that could be another reason she cuts herself off.

Advice:

1. Keep in touch
2. Visit
3. Call
4. Any money etc. needs to given to her specifically (she won't like it as she sees her relationship as forever but may appreciate it in the future)
5. Gently point out things in their relationship that are unusual and let her work it out
6. Be available
7. Stand your ground
8. Research controlling relationships and also Aspergers

Sending love to you and your family.

[Rachel1350]

Ps. You have an ideal opportunity to visit now the baby's born and when your daughter would probably very much appreciate seeing you. Don't wait until February. Book a hotel and just go. Even if it's just for a short visit. (Certainly don't overstay your welcome!) Take a casserole and cake or similar. Sorry its such a long way but think of it as an investment in future relationships. xx

[SirVixofVixHall]

I feel an impotent fury that he has taken her out of hospital so soon. I stayed in the minimum of two nights with dd2, as I wanted to be home with my toddler, but I later wished I had stayed in longer as it is so hard, and I have a DH who helps with everything, cooks etc.

To me, his message reads as a sort of warning shot across the bows, a message to you that he is in charge. I find him frightening, even on the page, so I can’t imagine the stress and fear this gives you. His parents will see what they want to see. They are relieved, I imagine, that this difficult and controlling person has a loving spouse. Read up on narcissistic personality disorder, might this fit him ?

Does your dd have any friends at all now, or no-one but him ?

[SirVixofVixHall]

Oh and I agree on reporting your concerns to her midwife team , they will have noticed the control I imagine, and a confidential nudge from you may mean that she gets watched more closely.