How can I be less of a doormat and more of a nice diva??

[Hresdyu]

I have been doing a lot of self reflection lately and I think that my trouble with men is because I’m far too accommodating and can be a bit of a doormat. This obviously becomes unattractive and ultimately the relationship breaks down or doesn’t go anywhere. I really want to stop this pattern but I don’t know how to.

Basically I’m a nice person so I go out of my way to be kind to others and understand things from their point of view. When this happens in relationships I think it comes across as unattractive.

I have a few acquaintances who treat other people in a way that I would hate. For example, one particular person (A) is married but puts her husband down in front of other people. She’s mean to him and is the kind of person who’s rude in restaurants but her husband adores her. He just laps it all up.

The problem is that I actually really like who I am. I like that I’m a nice, considerate person, but I am so fed up of repeating this pattern with men.

I’m in my early 40s now. How can I stop this from happening? How can I be less of a doormat and more of a nice diva??

Maybe you're stuck chasing personalities like your mum. A bit angry a bit aggressive, and you want to earn their love by placating them.
That’s a very interesting thought. I can see how that could be. I don’t know if I mentioned that Mr X is a bit angry and aggressive at times. Just to add to his long list of qualities! 😱

Are you aware that you are both playing the same game?

Not telling him who you were going away with...were you hoping to make him jealous?

If I was interested in dating someone, and they told me they were going away for a while but refused to say who with, I’d think that was very odd.

No, of course they don’t HAVE to tell me anything at all...but why wouldn’t they? I think you were trying to appear mysterious and intriguing, but most people would find that weird and as if you had something to hide.

He sounds like a potentially abusive dick, but to be honest it sounds like that’s exactly what you’re looking for.

Your lack of boundaries is actually scary, they are non existent!

This guy sounds very similar to an ex of mine (except mine at least pretended to be nice and decent at the beginning). I started the relationship very confident and, like you, happy with the person I was, but left it with my self esteem utterly crushed. Please cut the man off he will ruin you if you give him the chance.

"I don’t think I like bad boys though. I’m not interested in a guy who’ll cheat on me."

You think cheating on you is the only bad thing a boyfriend can do to you?! The naivety is astounding.

This thread reminds me of a teenage girl obsessing over analysing all the boys she's interested in. It seems less about seeking advice and more about seeking excuses to talk more and more about "Mr X". It's self indulgent.

*obsessively

OP, bad boys aren't just cheats.

Lots of men will be "bad" for you.

They're emotional abusers, alcoholics, workaholics, crap with money, etc - just dysfunctional in some kind of way.

The dating process is not just about compatibility- it's about weeding out the dysfunctional ones.

Here's an analogy for you:

You're a diver , swimming in the sea. There's lots of sharks.

So - are you going to get in a cage & be safe, or are you going to get attacked?

Your boundaries are your cage.

Protect yourself!

Whilst on the subject, I'm pretty sure you are co-dependent - lack of boundaries, unable to assert yourself in relationships. Please, please read the book I mentioned up thread. Or at least do one of the online questionnaires.

I discovered I was codependent in my mid-40's, after 2 failed marriages/relationships & some therapy.

I really feel you'll benefit from proper psychotherapy.

Not telling him who you were going away with...were you hoping to make him jealous?
I wasn’t playing games. I said I would tell him on Monday on the phone because it’s complicated to explain how I know these friends but he wanted to know immediately. I gave some more information but he wanted to know everything which, without writing an essay, I didn’t want to go into in a text. I think that’s fair enough.

This guy sounds very similar to an ex of mine (except mine at least pretended to be nice and decent at the beginning).
My friend was very nice indeed in the beginning. Lots and lots of compliments. This more critical side has only started recently.

A few random thoughts from me:
Not saying who you are going away with when someone asks is just odd. The rest of the context can well wait until a conversation.
Not everyone at work is flirting- older guy and younger trainee.
I read your posts and pretty early on thought you sounded like you are still in training but have been a mature student. The career advancement concern from Mr X - presuming medical - could be insightful. You say he worked with you but has moved on for promotion. Competency based curricula allow for moving through and part time training allows for learning at a rate faster than simply factoring in time in programme. The difficulty is that it doesn’t add “caseness”. If your profession is medical or VERY similar then you should know what I mean.

It’s likely that he was never “just a friend”.

There are lots of intelligent, kind men who are great company and have time and energy to give to a relationship. You’re not meeting and dating one of them because you’re wasting time on men you should have filtered out!

Ninjapsy, not medical but similar. Yes, that was his concern.

I did give him some information about who I was seeing but he wanted to know everything immediately. I don’t think I was being difficult.

Then he has been insightful and, I think, genuine. You are aware of the demand of moving up in work. No one is the finished work product in week one of the next rung on the career ladder.
If he has been a caring mentor/senior and is still being caring then he doesn’t sound so arrogant.

Ninjapsy I agree. I was just hurt because I thought that he would be a bit more supportive and encouraging. From his perspective he’s just being honest.

I haven't read the full thread, sorry, but having understanding for other people's behaviour doesn't mean that you have to accept it. You need to start seeing the behaviour of others from the perspective of your own boundaries. That way, you can see when you need to get out of an unsuitable relationship, regardless of how understanding you want to be.

OP, I've been following your thread and I actually haven't posted in so long that I had to re-do my account to send this msg, but it's actually just so frustrating that I had to say something.

Basically, you remind me so much of my best friend (like a sister to me, so like sisters we are very blunt and honest with and about each other). Recently we had an argument because of a man she keeps chasing. Really, he is just your run of the mill arsehole, but for some reason she is hooked. He had a good job, is v smart, intellectual, blah blah blah - they were on and off for ages, but never called each other boyfriend and girlfriend. She broke it off with him again about 6 months ago, I think because she wanted him to chase after her, but he never did. She keeps trying to read into all his reactions and thinks they are soulmates (the "like twins" thing you said earlier), but really I think he was just using her for an ego boost. I am a big believer that if someone wants to see you and be with you they will. Not just be on the phone and say dismissive things about your job and photo.

Basically she is like you in that she is always going on and on about just how kind and lovely she is, and wants to talk for ages about him and all the little signs and signals that he is 'sending' her, and why does he not want to be with her because she is just so kind and lovely. And acts very clueless when I try to tell her she has bad boundaries or is co-dependent (as I believe you are doing. I think you are just asking people to explain these things so you can just talk about him more, and about how kind and lovely you are) After weeks and weeks of this I finally cracked - she as going on and on about how kind and caring she is and why wouldn't he want that etc etc - I told her that I don't think he thinks like that, he is just some guy who doesn't care about her that much and that she should put all this 'kind caring' bullshit to the side because she seems to think that being kind and lovely means sacrificing your wants and needs for another person and that's what 'good' people do, and that if she doesn't just sacrifice herself to his needs, that he won't want her.

I told her if she wants to chase and beg and subordinate herself and pretend to be his friend (as she is trying to do now) to be close to him again, that is her business. that she can come to be if she is really hurting, but omg I do not need to go back and forth with the tiny details of how he dismisses her, but how that must mean something, and they are so 'connected'. It's exhausting. Like this thread.

Thanks for your post cheeseaddict420 and for taking the trouble to log back in to make it. I see a lot of truth in many of your points. However, I was intrigued about the codependency thing because, until today, I hadn’t heard of it other than, eg, a family member supplying alcohol to an alcoholic or an abuser and abusee being codependent on each other. I hadn’t heard of codependency as a state that one person can be in. So I was interested to hear more.

OP, have a try at this:

www.mhankyswoh.org/Uploads/files/pdfs/CoDependency-CoDependencyTest_20130813.pdf

Just as 'bad boy' doesn't simply mean someone who would cheat on you but someone who will treat you badl, codependency isnt just about enabling addictions. It's essentially about over-reliance on a particular person, or even people ingeneral, for approval, acceptance and sense of self. It can involve addictions but it can also be about enabling any kind of unhealthy behaviour inclduing irresponsibility, immaturity etc.

I don't think ive ever heard anyone in their 40s listing cockiness and arrogance as attractive traits. If you were 15-25 ok. By your age most people see arrogance as immaturity and a character flaw rather than a virtue.

I wonder if you're stuck in a teen phase, chasing your mum's love by pursuing men who are clever but self-centred, emotionally unavailable and slight arseholes.

In answer to your question, a good decent man wouldn't be put off by your doormat tendencies. He might encourage you to establish better boundaries. But the kind of personalities you are chasing tend to see kindness as a weakness, a trait that can be utilised for their own gain, and they tend to have more respect for people who are harder and meaner. Someone who tells you they can be cruel and selfish isn't be disarmingly honest about their faults, they're covering themselves so that when they do it you can't say you weren't warned.

Rather than being a diva you just need a stronger sense of self, and with that you'd be less likely to be attracted to those kinds of personalities.

I scored 20 on the test so just normal!

Thanks Shambu. Your post makes a lot of sense.

Interesting thread OP. I respect your honesty and openness.

My question would be why are you so afraid of conflict? Why do you need to try to keep the peace?

Your mother was ostensibly similar to mine - angry aggressive, enmeshed. But being a different type of personality I reacted very differently. You said that you could never express anger or how you felt, whereas if my mum made me angry I told her so. If I felt differently from her I would say. My point being that it’s not a given that you have to keep the peace with that kind of person, that you had to react the way you did.

What’s the worst thing that could happen from confrontation or standing up for yourself?

You have said that you fear if state your terms in a relationship that you don’t feel enough of a priority, they may end it. So what? If they don’t they’re not that into you so you know where you stand. It frees you to find someone who is more right.

Then he has been insightful and, I think, genuine. You are aware of the demand of moving up in work. No one is the finished work product in week one of the next rung on the career ladder.If he has been a caring mentor/senior and is still being caring then he doesn’t sound so arrogant.

@Ninjapsy this is a crock of shit and you shouldn't be filling OP's head with ideas that suggest this man is good for her.

The point you are missing is that this man did not express his views in ANY WAY that supported or mentored OP. A supportive person even if they thought OP wasn't quite ready in her professional ladder would not tell them they weren't up to it in his view which is what happened her.

It wasn't insightful or mentoring it was nasty and undermining.

What a supportive person would do is is ask whether their friend felt ready, offer to be a support (call me any time if you need advice type offer, always free to chat through any professional problems), and help them find ways to address the step up.

Everyone is aware of the demands of moving up in a professional ladder structure. It is fucking shitty for a senior person to say to a junior person who is supposed to be their friend sorry but in my view you aren't up to it. Especially when she's saving herself 1.5 years additional time due to a new change.

I don't think I've ever seen a post on here that has angered me so much. This Op is vulnerable and obviously on the cusp of getting involved with a nasty, arrogant, self obsessed man who is cutting her down (did you not read what he said about her nice WhatsApp photo). She does not need idiots telling her that actually he's a very nice man watching out for her professionally and being nice mentoring and caring.

I don't think op is codependent. Well - she may be - but I think its deeper than that tbh.

I think she has no sense of self because her mother invaded and undermined and decimated her from her earliest childhood. She seems not to have developed a normal ego... the part of a human that separates them into an individual, distinct from other humans.

While normal people walk around knowing that they are a discrete person in their own right, op sees herself more as a fine mist that other people can walk through... theres no personhood there. Of course the flipside is, this also means other people can't "see" her. (And she wonders why she has no interest or intimacy with men - well - what kind of man wants time with a woman who is just waiting to see what kind of woman she should pretend to be?? Who is reading his every move, trying to reshape her misty non self into what she imagines he'd prefer to look at?)

That's why this thread is so frustrating. How can someone have insight into their behavior, and understand that their beliefs and choices have an impact, when they arent even sure they exist? When they are even ambivalent about whether they SHOULD be a whole, real person...

Even now OP is scanning our responses, looking for clues as to how she can shortcut to pretending to be a person. Without actually becoming a person. She wants to still be a misty cloud because that's secure for her, if she tries out an iteration that we've advised in this thread, and the man doesnt like it, no worries she can just reshape herself again.

@Hresdyu I noticed you ignored my question up thread: why are you trying to attract the interest of a cruel and selfish man?

@Spinelessjello I agree with you. The pp you quote is spectacularly not seeing the wood for the trees. Dangerous post from them.

Interesting thread OP. I respect your honesty and openness.
Thank you.

My question would be why are you so afraid of conflict? Why do you need to try to keep the peace?
I think a few reasons:

• my Mum was the angry, out of control, scary one and I didn’t want to be like her in any way so became the calm, controlled, friendly person instead.
• I was living up to what was expected of me. My Mum often told me how good and kind I was and I didn’t want to disappoint her.
• I was copying the example of my Dad.
• I remember very clearly that, as a child, I was scared of my own strength. I thought that if I hit another child (I never would have done!) I might accidentally kill them. I truly believed that until I was about 25 and confided to my boss who was psychoanalysing me because I never got angry at work!
• I didn’t like conflict because of the physical effect on me: knotted stomach, painful lump in my throat, upset stomach.
• I didn’t stand up to my Mum because I was scared of her. She would be quite rough with me if I did something like come second in a class test. I knew that she was like that when I was actually a very good child. I couldn’t risk being badly behaved in anyway because it might have escalated to something even more physical and frightening.