What would you do next? Am I over reacting?

[WhatWouldYouDoNext]

Hi all. This is going to be quite long for clarity. Sorry and thanks for reading.

I have been very close friends with a married man for around 8 years. I'm also friendly with his wife but have a lot more in common with him. It's all above board - our families have holidayed and spent Christmas together, there are no concerns about impropriety.

Around the start of the summer, his behaviour towards me started to change - I feel like he 'argues' with me now for the sake of it (claims to be playing Devil's Advocate but also to hold these views dear, yet has also contradicted himself); has started 'picking' on me - finding fault in what I'm saying; saying things I can only assume are intended to undermine my confidence - things like telling me men have looked at me in 'disgust' or that my 'ego is showing' when I'm simply not being down on myself and that I'm single due to my resting bitch face (joke!). That kind of thing.

We play in a band together. We've gigged a lot over the summer and some of them have included overnight stays and have been a lot of fun so I didn't say anything - not wanting to create an unpleasant atmosphere for the others - and largely dealt with it by ignoring and avoiding but it hasn't made much impact. I did try telling him that his behaviour towards me had changed and I didn't like it but rather than asking what I meant or opening a dialogue, he just said, "I could say the same about you" and shut it down.

A couple of mutual friends suggested he feels threatened by my new friendships within band and is feeling pushed out; that he is jealous because I play a 'higher profile' instrument than he does - not only does this mean that I'm more 'visible' than he is but that if I can't make a gig/left band, I'd have to be replaced whereas he wouldn't. It's been suggested that he is struggling to find his place in the band and that he is trying to be 'blokey' to fit in with the men better - I know that a couple of people find him a bit 'try hard' with a particular persona he has pushed.

I don't disagree with any of that and I think that all of it is relevant. I agree that he has found it socially difficult with them but he really likes them and loves being in the band. I agree that all of those are probably an issue for him. But none of them are my fault or my problem to solve.

However, in the event that I had inadvertently 'pushed him out', at the start of September, I resolved to make more of an effort to spend time with him. Although, the only reason I was spending less time with him was because of how he was behaving towards me.

Nevertheless, I have seen him a few times over the past few weeks and it seemed to all be relatively back to normal. No issues except for maybe a couple of little comments that I didn't like but I wasn't sure if I was just more 'sensitive' to things he was saying now. But there wasn't anything specifically unkind that was directed towards me. So I started to see it as having been resolved.

Anyway, fast forward to a few days ago. We travel to/from band practise together and, at the end of practise, he said it was time to go and he straighted his arm out and put his outstretched hand into my face to push me backwards/aside. I was horrified and stunned. We'd been talking to another man who was visibly shocked by it. I felt humiliated and didn't know how to react.

What I wish I'd done was say, "what the fuck are you doing? Don't you ever fucking touch me like that again!" What I did was try and laugh it off and said to the other man, "he's a bit of a twat, isn't he?" to which my 'friend' laughed and said, "yes I am" but he was behind me and halfway out the door by this point. The other guy just looked a bit shocked and didn't reply.

I had to travel home with him but didn't speak to him and just said I was tired when he asked what the matter was. He was talking about us going out at the weekend so clearly didn't see anything wrong in what he'd done.

I have a long standing history of abuse stemming from childhood and following on to a number of abusive relationships, that still impacts on me now and, coincidentally, the following day, I had a pre-assessment appointment for therapy to deal with this. Which i why I'm not sure if I'm overreacting to this because now I feel I have completely shut down to him. I no longer consider him a friend. I want nothing more to do with him. I don't want to see, speak to, or even be in the same room as him again.

I can deal with the family/friendship side of it - I will just have nothing to do with him but I don't know what to do about band. I don't want to be in practises with him. I don't want to do gigs with him. I don't want to see him in any capacity whatsoever. But I don't see a solution. I could leave but we have several gigs coming up in the next couple of months and I'd be leaving them massively in the shit.

I've since mentioned it to one person in the band who feels that I ought to give it no energy, put it down to being his problem and not let it affect me but I've woken up again thinking about it , feeling angry and with my heart pounding. So I thought I'd bring it here.

What would you do next?

I would speak to the band leader now and explain everything that's been going on. Don't pull your punches. Demonstrate that each incident might sound petty on its own, but it's the build up and the increasing nastiness, ending with the DV incident a few days ago. You no longer feel safe around him, that he is bullying you and attempting to isolate you and you can no longer continue in the band if he is there.

This band means so much to you, and I'm sure the others have seen him doing this so it won't be a surprise. Fight your corner! Do not go gently into that good night!!

Wow this just gets worse with all of the other ‘little’ incidents as well. He sounds like a master manipulator. I really hope you can sort this out. I would suggest writing down all of these incidents, both large and small, just in case you need it at some later point, either if a bit of distance makes you question or was really that bad or something else happens and you need some evidence.

He sounds like a master manipulator.

Yes. I just hadn't really seen much evidence of it personally until recently.

He has always made a bit of a 'joke' about boundaries being boring but I'd never really considered that he'd go this far tbh.

And I agree with writing it all down. I shall do. As much as anything if this other guy hadn't seen it, I thinkid already be questioning whether or not it had happened.

Although, I have since discovered that the first woman I told about it saw it too.

I think her reaction was interesting because she was very supportive when it was the verbal/emotional stuff and told me that if it escalated then she was sure they'd rather have me than him but now it has escalated, she seemed to be minimising it and telling that maybe I ought to just withdraw emotionally from him.

Maybe I've misunderstood her - we haven't spoken in person.

As for what to do about the "friend", I think it's clear that you need to cut him out - delete him on Facebook, stop sharing lifts, stop contacting him and socialising with him.

I won't see him socially or contact him but I won't delete or block him yet - I need to keep my powder dry n all that.

Keep your powder dry?
What does that even mean?
If you don't delete him on Facebook, you should at the very least change your settings so that he can't see your updates - you can lock everything down so that he's still in your friend list but can't see much of your profile at all.

Crikey OP, who you write about sounds exactly like a "friend" of mine, down to the expressing disdain for boundaries and being a master manipulator. He's also in a band! (which I am not in). Musical instruments must bring out the inner wanker in them or something.

Tell the band it's him or you - surely they'll keep you because a) your musical instrument is more niche and therefore better than his and b) he's a dick and they probably don't like him anyway.

I know NAMALT, poor menz etc. etc., but ffs, so many men really do seem to hate women.

at working class men not laying a hand on 'their' women. Weird thing to say OP, plenty do and what a misogynistic sentiment

Separately this friend of yours sounds unpleasant and a dick- why are you friends with someone like this? Just end the friendship block and move on. I don't think I get why he can't be blocked? He has no power over you OP and isn't your superior, you don't need to pander to what he/others might think. Speak to your band leader and ask what resolution there is after he has assaulted you.

In the nicest possible way OP I think you are over analysing it and worrying too much about other peoples responses as validation. Yes it was bad, yes he's a dick, no you are not mistaken, yes you can block him, no he can't push you out of your band.

I don't think you should leave the band. As you say it has been very beneficial for your confidence, so don't let him take that away from you.

I think if you say something like "I felt humiliated and violated by the way you shoved me in the face the other evening. I don't know why you felt you could do that to me; it was unprovoked and totally inappropriate. You seem to have an issue with me generally as your behaviour towards me has become increasingly unpleasant lately, which I have so far overlooked, but after the shoving incident I now feel it's best if we cool our friendship. Please respect my wishes and keep your distance from now on." Something like that.

It will be hard OP, and be prepared for him to try to ruin things for you, but this is a transition phase that will pass and in a few weeks/months it will be your new normal. I had a situation (nothing as bad as yours) with a scheming woman in my friendship group and I had to tear the sticking plaster off that one eventually. It hurt a lot in the short term but the pain passed and I no longer have to deal with her crap anymore.

be prepared for him to try to ruin things for you

This is very much what I'm aware of. I've been here before with someone and he was successful in ruining things for me and two other women who he set his sights on.

It was one of the most stressful and unpleasant experiences and I'm not in any hurry to repeat it. Unfortunately, this friend knows all about this too.

I feel I don't have any choice but to say something to at least a few people but the consensus so far seems to be that he's a bit annoying but we are seen as such good friends that people will think in being ridiculous 🙄

I think it's also not helped by the fact that I was 'headhunted' to join another band over the summer so I think his nose is well and truly pushed out of joint.

The women who know how he's behaved towards me agree that his behaviour has been utterly inappropriate but have some sympathy with him because they think he feels he has lost his friend.

When I have pointed out that I've only withdrawn from him because of his behaviour towards me, they do agree and concede that he's brought it on himself but they only see the lovely, slightly socially inept, try hard side of him for a couple of hours once a week. I've known him well for 8 years.

But they still feel a little bit sorry for him 🙄 it's real, he's only behaving like this because of how I've made him feel territory.

aHintOfPercy

Sorry to hear you've been through similar. It's horrible and the worst part almost is that you sound about 12 when you tell anyone because most people expect this sort of behaviour to have been left in the playground!

"I was 'headhunted' to join another band over the summer"

Join the other band then.
You are wasting far too much headspace on this nasty man and other people's opinions.
And frankly if you're not prepared to delete him on Facebook, you can't expect the others to agree to kick him out of the band.
Either you're friends or you're not (I suggest not).

Don't allow his bad behaviour to weaken your own sense of self. These reactions from him are to do with him. You have not caused them to happen. What's happening is your negative and uncomfortable feelings are causing you to close up and lose your voice in these scenarios. It is possible to feel awkward and upset AND still have a voice to request respectful treatment of yourself.

And frankly if you're not prepared to delete him on Facebook, you can't expect the others to agree to kick him out of the band.

I appreciate this. But it's not as simple as that.

I have joined the other band but the one we are both in is my only social contact with other women.

Seaweed42

That's exactly it.

I disagree with those who think you should block at this stage- they don't seem to be bearing in mind what this bloke is clearly like.

If you do that, he will shitstir even more and try and spin anything you've done etc even more than he already has.

I agree with keeping your powder dry, but you need only do that for a few days while you get round to telling everyone in the band or that he knows who is significant to you.

Tell everyone what he's been like, so you've spoken to them before he can.

Then, block him.

Interestedwoman

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm thinking.

We've both been invited out somewhere at the weekend. I was unsure whether I could go. He asked me to tell him if I did because he would pick me up and drive but that he wouldn't go on his own (wouldnt be on his own - he knows everyone going as well as I do).

I've now RSVP'd to say I'm going but I'm not saying anything to him.

This is the sort of thing that makes it difficult.

If I don't tell him (I have no intention of telling him) then he can spin that as me being a bitch and it would take everyone to stop and think for long enough to realise, "hang on, this is a grown man. Why is he not making his own social arrangements?" for them to disagree.

Because, on the surface, it does appear underhand.

Oh it's a band related thing at the weekend.

Have you spoken to the band leader yet?
You need to listen to the advice you're getting on here and talk to the band leader.

Did you speak with the band members? Otherwise, message them about this before this weekend.

Message 'friend' n say 'I'm going this weekend but I've made other arrangements to get there thanks'. Then just don't reply any further to him.

I'd bed my ass he would go whether you do or not, he just doesn't want you going and thinks you will chicken out if he makes you feel obligated to go with him.

I haven't spoken to him yet. He'll be there Saturday and I'd rather speak to him then but yes I take the point that this friend might also go anyway. And is more likely to if he doesn't hear from me.

Tbh, I just have no idea how to broach it or what to say to the band leader without sounding like a child everyone thinks we are really close and I dont know how to not make it sound like "X is picking on me".

I've spoken to 3 people now.

One thinks he is out of order and has been very critical of him regarding the verbal/emotional stuff but backed down a bit about the physical. I felt she tried to make it sound like a misjudged joke. I cant tell whether she thinks I'm a bit unhinged... she thinks I need to just not give him any 'energy' and should just withdraw from him. I dont know whether to speak to her again first.

The man I spoke to thinks I ought to speak to him and it would be a shame to lose a long standing friendship over it.

His wife felt the same and feels a bit sorry for him. She thinks he is hurt about "losing his friend" and is acting out because of that. However, I then gave her chapter and verse on my past. On the back of that she said she understood what I felt the way I did and that he should have known not to say/do the things he did but she still feels a bit sorry for him.

In light of all that, I'm concerned they'll think I'm the one creating an issue out if it.

The bottom line is that now I'm scared of him. Not that he'll hurt me but scared of what he will do next. That's why I dont want to be around him anymore. He scared me.

As far as talking to other people goes, I dont know how to do it without looking like I'm "telling tales".

Like I say, I had to deal with a similar issue before and took the 'least said, soonest mended' approach which failed massively and I lost an entire friendship group over it so clearly saying nothing is not the way to go but what do i say?

I've thought about messaging the guy who saw it but i ow he does like this man.

I wondered about saying "Hi. How are you? Hope you dont mind me messaging but I was really shocked by what X did after practise the other night. I know I laughed it off at the time but I was humiliated and really upset by it. He has been increasingly verbally unpleasant to since the beginning of the summer and I've not said anything about it but that just felt like a step too far and I dont know what to do now. If I'm honest, I dont want to see or speak to him again. It scared me."

And see what he replies with but if he comes back with something like, "tbh, I think he was just messing about. I dont think he meant anything by it" - which has been other people's response in a nutshell, I dont know what I'll do.

If he comes back with "tbh, I was really surprised he did it. I was surprised you laughed it off at the time" I'd have a bit more of a starting point.

"Hi [bandleader], I need to tell you about an issue in the band. Unfortunately [ex-friend] has been increasingly nasty towards me (despite our long standing friendship) and this culminated in physically aggression towards me on [day]. I have decided to end the friendship for my own well-being as I don't feel safe in his presence any more. I would like to ask you to consider whether or not we should ask [ex-friend] to leave the band as I don't think he and I can continue to play together. I am sorry to have to ask, but I feel I have no other choice."

Something like that?

I feel like if I tell people I'll just look like I'm 'trying to get him into trouble'

I am interested in the continuing of canvassing opinions on what to do next, what other people thought. I don't mean this in a cold or unkind way. Quite the opposite. It feels like, if you get enough people validating your position, that perhaps you may feel some relief, that if enough people say it was wrong, you can relax a little and trust yourself.

I am sorry if I'm wrong, or I'm saying it badly. But I would dearly like to see you post that you're going to handle this professionally, with the band leader, and not do any more surveying of those around you, but trust yourself. Trust what you have been through. Snide, horrible comments here and there and then moving to physical abuse.

You do not have to parcel this up and present it to others and wait for their verdict before you decide what to do next. You are in control, you are safe. You are. You can say no. You contact the band leader. The situation is over.

(again, I am keen to apologise for the delivery of this in case it's just not what you need right now - it is coming from a good place, if that helps at all.)

Thanks Emma.

That's a good starting point. I think maybe "this obviously puts me in a difficult position regarding band. I'm happy to honour the commitments we already have but need to consider whether i can remain because, tbh, the way things have escalated has scared me."

I think the problem is that because he's so 'mild mannered' - he told me recently that a colleague had described him as a 'smiling assassin' and he took it as a compliment - no one will believe he meant it maliciously.

It was an aggressive act but he didnt do it aggressively and, as someone else said, there's no way he'd have done it to a man. Or anyone else. Although that is just being out down to him feeling comfortable enough with me to relax 🙄

Firstly, it’s sometimes acceptable in the context of a long-term intimate friendship to give someone a playful shove ie on the arm and gently. It is never acceptable to lay hands on someone’s head or face and push them and I’m not surprised you were shocked when he did that, OP. Listen to the instinct telling you he isn’t safe to be around and you feel scared. I’d suggest talking openly to the other band members and telling them how shocked and scared you felt when he did that, also how uncomfortable you feel in response to his put-downs. Yes, people in bands can be utter dicks the same as people in general, and the context doesn’t excuse the behaviour. My intuition would be he’s attracted to you and angry that you are unattainable. Some dickhead males think ‘negging’ and destroying a woman’s confidence is big and clever: it’s not. It’s also not surprising you ‘froze’ in response to him suddenly getting physical with you. That’s worrying. I would not be on my own with him.