What would you do next? Am I over reacting?

[WhatWouldYouDoNext]

Hi all. This is going to be quite long for clarity. Sorry and thanks for reading.

I have been very close friends with a married man for around 8 years. I'm also friendly with his wife but have a lot more in common with him. It's all above board - our families have holidayed and spent Christmas together, there are no concerns about impropriety.

Around the start of the summer, his behaviour towards me started to change - I feel like he 'argues' with me now for the sake of it (claims to be playing Devil's Advocate but also to hold these views dear, yet has also contradicted himself); has started 'picking' on me - finding fault in what I'm saying; saying things I can only assume are intended to undermine my confidence - things like telling me men have looked at me in 'disgust' or that my 'ego is showing' when I'm simply not being down on myself and that I'm single due to my resting bitch face (joke!). That kind of thing.

We play in a band together. We've gigged a lot over the summer and some of them have included overnight stays and have been a lot of fun so I didn't say anything - not wanting to create an unpleasant atmosphere for the others - and largely dealt with it by ignoring and avoiding but it hasn't made much impact. I did try telling him that his behaviour towards me had changed and I didn't like it but rather than asking what I meant or opening a dialogue, he just said, "I could say the same about you" and shut it down.

A couple of mutual friends suggested he feels threatened by my new friendships within band and is feeling pushed out; that he is jealous because I play a 'higher profile' instrument than he does - not only does this mean that I'm more 'visible' than he is but that if I can't make a gig/left band, I'd have to be replaced whereas he wouldn't. It's been suggested that he is struggling to find his place in the band and that he is trying to be 'blokey' to fit in with the men better - I know that a couple of people find him a bit 'try hard' with a particular persona he has pushed.

I don't disagree with any of that and I think that all of it is relevant. I agree that he has found it socially difficult with them but he really likes them and loves being in the band. I agree that all of those are probably an issue for him. But none of them are my fault or my problem to solve.

However, in the event that I had inadvertently 'pushed him out', at the start of September, I resolved to make more of an effort to spend time with him. Although, the only reason I was spending less time with him was because of how he was behaving towards me.

Nevertheless, I have seen him a few times over the past few weeks and it seemed to all be relatively back to normal. No issues except for maybe a couple of little comments that I didn't like but I wasn't sure if I was just more 'sensitive' to things he was saying now. But there wasn't anything specifically unkind that was directed towards me. So I started to see it as having been resolved.

Anyway, fast forward to a few days ago. We travel to/from band practise together and, at the end of practise, he said it was time to go and he straighted his arm out and put his outstretched hand into my face to push me backwards/aside. I was horrified and stunned. We'd been talking to another man who was visibly shocked by it. I felt humiliated and didn't know how to react.

What I wish I'd done was say, "what the fuck are you doing? Don't you ever fucking touch me like that again!" What I did was try and laugh it off and said to the other man, "he's a bit of a twat, isn't he?" to which my 'friend' laughed and said, "yes I am" but he was behind me and halfway out the door by this point. The other guy just looked a bit shocked and didn't reply.

I had to travel home with him but didn't speak to him and just said I was tired when he asked what the matter was. He was talking about us going out at the weekend so clearly didn't see anything wrong in what he'd done.

I have a long standing history of abuse stemming from childhood and following on to a number of abusive relationships, that still impacts on me now and, coincidentally, the following day, I had a pre-assessment appointment for therapy to deal with this. Which i why I'm not sure if I'm overreacting to this because now I feel I have completely shut down to him. I no longer consider him a friend. I want nothing more to do with him. I don't want to see, speak to, or even be in the same room as him again.

I can deal with the family/friendship side of it - I will just have nothing to do with him but I don't know what to do about band. I don't want to be in practises with him. I don't want to do gigs with him. I don't want to see him in any capacity whatsoever. But I don't see a solution. I could leave but we have several gigs coming up in the next couple of months and I'd be leaving them massively in the shit.

I've since mentioned it to one person in the band who feels that I ought to give it no energy, put it down to being his problem and not let it affect me but I've woken up again thinking about it , feeling angry and with my heart pounding. So I thought I'd bring it here.

What would you do next?

You are leaving the band or he is . Have nothing more to do with him.

He pushed you in the face! Wtf? I'm glad someone else witnessed it.

'Just to clarify my 'overreaction' question. It triggered a 'trauma response' in me. I wondered if others would have a similar response or whether they'd just be able to laugh it off.'

No, no-one would laugh off being pushed in the face. It's so extreme and random, it's bizarre. He isn't safe for you to be around. IMO, you should tell the others and get him thrown out.

Whether it's down to the poor diddums being socially awkward, insecure, or whatever is irrelevant, EVERYONE, no matter how poor their social skills, knows you don't push people in the face. And whatever his motivations, he did it.

I don't see that talking to him would help, as he'd just minimize it or be a twat I assume. He knows full well what he's doing.

I don't even think you should be on your own with him- I don't want to freak you out, but you don't know what he might do next, as his behaviour's aggressive and random.

Just try and get him thrown out. Best wishes xxx

I wonder about calmly but firmly calling him out on it every time. I'm thinking what if you say things like " not funny at all" , "don't ever touch me", " you know this doesn't make you look cool , right?" "Lay off already".. every. Single. Time. Obviously if he pushes you it's ideal if you can vary his hand away and shout what the fuck but of course that's hard...

I can't believe anyone stone cold sober would think pushing someone like that in the face was funny or ok

🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

I’m wondering if he’s testing your boundaries OP - he’s abused you “ in plane sight” - time to put a stop to it as I’d be mindful what he may do next.

Thanks all. I'm on my way out but yes, I agree.

I'm just very conscious of the way abuse escalates. I mean, I can't imagine that he'd ever do anything more but then I couldn't have imagined he'd do that and 2 months ago, I couldn't have imagined that he'd have told me a stranger looked at me with disgust or that 6 months before that he'd have said I have a resting bitch face.

Or any of the other things he's said.

He's a complete shit.

I really hope the band chooses you. At least give the other members the opportunity to choose.

He's an absolute arsehole. Agree with the what Hellsbells says. He needs to leave the band and he is no friend.

It must be so hurtful after years of real friendship. But he's no friend of yours now, WhatWouldYouDoNext. I'd guess it's jealousy but it doesn't really matter, does it? What matters is how he's treating you.

You shouldn't feel you have to leave the band. It's such a positive force in your life. At least give the other members the chance to make an informed choice. Don't just leave because you can't bear to be near him.

I would be very freaked out, angry and upset if someone pushed my face as you describe. It's horrible. There's no way you're overreacting.

I am freaked out by it.

The way it made me feel was not different to any other abuse but I dont know if other people.will be able to understand that. We're seen as really.close friends and my fear is that it will be seen that he, at.most, made a poorly judged joke and I'm being over the top.

I feel really trapped by it. But this is every morning now since it happened that I've woken with it on my mind.

I'm worried that I'll just be seen as attention seeking and making a mountain out of a molehill whatever I do and however i respond.

Whatever happens, his actions only affected me. Whatever i do will affect everyone because either he or i will be gone. Either they'll have to replace me or kick him out and see me each week knowing that I'm the reason he's no longer there. And I know Im not the reason he wont be there, it was his behaviour and his choice but you know what I mean.

I'm lying in hed just trying imagine the scenarios or the conversations.

I've noticed over the past couple of weeks that he's targeted the people.im closest to - makes sure he sits next to them or complimenting them. I thought it was a bit odd at the time but now I'm wondering if there was more to it and he is trying to push me out ir 'punish'me for something.

Whatever the reason, I don't think he likes me very much anymore.

Oh sorry, except that he messaged me while I was out last night to see if i were free later on today.

Now, i haven't replied but he clearly has no concept.at all that he's done anything wrong!

This may not suit you, but this is what I'd do...

I'd wait. I'd wait for his next 'serious' transgression because it will almost almost certainly be in the post, and then I'd nail his fucking hat on.

Snork I've thought that too. The only problem is I dont think can bear to be around him until then. I don't feel 'safe' anymore

Not in the sense that I feel at risk of harm but he's not an emotionally safe person for me anymore.

I'm running through scenarios - such as just ignoring him till next practise and telling him I don't want to speak to him; asking the band leader to meet up for a beer and talking to him - either saying i don't think I can stay or that I want him to go..

I'm sorry but I think he does know. I think subconsciously he knows your vulnerability and is using it to put you down.

A one off incident would be an accident etc but he's targeting your friends, his behaviour has been vile for months.

He is either jealous of your success/popularity within the band or he thinks he "owns" you.

Perhaps you just reply "last time I saw you, you thought it was ok to shove me in the face on the pretext it was a joke. Not funny so I'll pass on meeting up"

He may wish to get into text ping pong but you can rock "shoving someone in the face is humiliating not funny, I wasn't laughing and neither was x" and however much he protests and tries to twist it stick to that one text.

I suppose you need to decide what outcome you want and be strategic. Can you stay in the band and ditch him as a friend and never be on your own with him?

He is either jealous of your success/popularity within the band or he thinks he "owns" you.

I have spoken to a couple of women in the group about what has happened over the past few months and they both offered the above and the most likely reasons. And, tbh, I agree.

I'm sorry but I think he does know. I think subconsciously he knows your vulnerability and is using it to put you down.

Yes, I agree. A couple of people have said that he's very guarded and difficult to get to know - his conversation topics are very controlled. Sort of thing. This is because, by his own admission, he is very controlled and measured. Nothing he ever says or does is by accident. He will know exactly what he is doing and exactly what his end goal is. He's trying to manipulate everyone.

I suspect that, at some point, I've stopped playing the game the way he wants and this is his way of regaining control.

I've just remembered a couple of other things that have happened over the summer.

After all this started, I had a small one off gig with some other band members. He asked if I wanted him to come along and support us. Given everything, i didn't and just said there was no need. He messaged one of the others saying he'd really wanted to support us but i was "adamant" he shouldn't be there but he wished he could be.

Then, a couple of weeks ago we had other long distance gig. He'd said nothing about travelling together and I'd arranged to pick someone else up on the way. 3 days beforehand, he said in front of everyone, "oh you could swing by mine and pick me up if you're driving... oh it's ok, you probably dont want me in the car with you. That's ok I'll go on my own" and looked very forlorn. Which really pissed me off.

He didnt really expect me to drive - what he wanted was for other people to feel uncomfortable and think I was unreasonable for not driving him and to position himself as my 'victim'. Otherwise he wouldnt have made a shitty PA comment in the way that he did or in front of everyone.

There are loads of other little things. Some others have noticed and have pissed them off because it impacted on them as well and probably loads more that I haven't even thought of!

He's ramping it up all the time, isn't he?

I suppose you need to decide what outcome you want and be strategic. Can you stay in the band and ditch him as a friend and never be on your own with him?

I dont want to see or speak to him again. I dont want to be interested he same room as him and I don't want to be in a position where he can influence others against me etc.

It does feel like bullying.

Block him on your phone and all social media. Remove his access to you.

Definitely go have a beer with the band leader and tell him the truth including the parts where the nutjob does manipulative crap to people around you.

Hes running out of way to control you so he is trying to control how others perceive you. Grey rock him.

If he comes up to a group you are chatting with, you excuse yourself and move away. If he follows you, loudly tell him to stop crowding you, hes being inappropriate. It will embarrass him.

What he did was assault and what he is doing is abusive. Hes a shallow, weak bully but you can beat him. You are stronger now and you can fight back. Worst case scenario the band ask you to quit. Best case, they catch on to him and sack him. You've nothing to lose.

Tell the others what he is doing. Dont protect him. Good luck and remember that he is pathetic and weak but you are strong and awesome!

God, this sounds awful. It's a real head fuck, I can't imagine your female friends saying the kind of things he has been saying to you. Or doing that? I'm afraid this is a jealous man who feels rejected by you, and my advice would be distance yourself, and don't respond to him. Agree you could send a text saying 'this isn't how a friend behaves, so we are not friends, and I'm not comfortable being with you after this'- or just blank him. Grey rock. I think eventually he might bugger off.

I agree speak to the bad leader.

Tell him the whole story that his man knows your history and is now bullying you with his manipulation and has assaulted you knowing that it would impact you.

You can iterate that you understand he was part of he band first but you can't stay if he does and you will respect his decision.

Remember this man has done this, not you. It's his abusive behaviour at fault.

Perhaps you could ask one of the female members that does understand to come along with you?

I would give a "too busy for socialising at the moment" non response to his text so as not to alert him that you are onto his behaviour and about to do something about it.

You said yourself earlier (in a much nicer way than I’m about to) that he’s a pretty insignificant member of the band that wouldn’t be missed in a professional capacity. Add into that that he’s a miserable, bullying cunt and there really is no excuse for him to stay while you’re forced out. Talk to the band manager, explain everything that has happened. Get him out. He’s brought it on himself.

Thanks. I feel more positive and confident about saying something now.

For clarity, we joined at the same time so not even as though he's been there for longer.

Thanks

@WhatWouldYouDoNext - The problem with abuse is that it is systemic: people collude in many ways, either by denying, or ignoring, or failing to act. It's as if you're back in some kind of family constellation here, and you're feeling the helplessness of that.

However, today you are NOT helpless - and he is a dangerous man who will never admit to what he's doing, and least of all to himself.

You need to act decisively and wholly on your own behalf - because until you do this, no-one else will.

Get him out, or get out. Two options, and either way you're well rid of him.

He is not your friend. He might have been your friend at some point, but he stopped some time ago.

It's interesting that you seem to be struggling to listen to your gut instinct. When he first started being nasty, you (naturally) wanted to spend less time with him, which you should have stuck to, but instead you decided to spend more time with him in an attempt to improve his behaviour. But in some ways you were sending him the message that you accepted the behaviour. Now his behaviour has escalated to the extent that he has crossed the line from emotional to physical abuse, your instinct is (rightly) screaming that you don't feel safe with him and don't want to be in the same room. However, you're second guessing yourself and seeking validation from others - you're asking us whether you're overreacting, you've asked a friend and want to ask more. The problem is that many people will minimise abuse and expect you to just put up with it. And the important thing is how you feel, not what they think.

It's great that you are starting counselling soon. Hopefully your counsellor will help you to work on trusting your instincts more.

Have you ever done the Freedom Programme?

As for what to do about the "friend", I think it's clear that you need to cut him out - delete him on Facebook, stop sharing lifts, stop contacting him and socialising with him.

The band question is a difficult one. Personally I would send a collective message to the other band members and tell them that he has been verbally and now physically aggressive towards you, that you are considering leaving the band, and would welcome their support in dealing with it. Perhaps he could be given one final chance to stop his behaviour, keep his distance and be respectful towards you - but one more attack (verbal or physical) and he is out. However, you might not be comfortable giving him one last chance?

The guy who witnessed it and was shocked is your ally here - could you both go to the band leader together, or just tell BL he saw what happened?

I agree with speaking collectively to the other band members. He assaulted you. He would never have done this to one of the male band members.