Are there any truly decent men out there?

[LemonFritz]

I thought I had an amazing husband, minor flaws and human, but wonderful. Turns out he is not.

Are there any truly decent men out there who are considerate, genuinely view women as equals in all ways and are not porn addicts?

As usual threads like this just become a haven for wronged and bitter women to collectively complain about how shit all men are. It is so depressing, so wrong and in the end utterly pointless pain shopping. I just MN would shut down threads with generic goady titles like this, they aren't good for anyone.

Ah, screw it - I quit. Let's all just hate each other.

Thank god for that! Was hoping you'd go the first time you threatened..

I'm really starting to wonder the same thing.

I always try to treat everyone with respect until I have a reason not to.

This is kind of the point though.

I treat everyone with respect when I meet them. I have male friends. I have a son. I don't go into a relationship with someone who is already displaying shitty behaviours - I choose men whose behaviour/attitude/morals/position I find agreeable.

The point is that every single one of the men I've met, with the exception of a boy I dated for 6 months when I was 18, has turned out to not be decent.

Some take longer to reveal this and can have you believing they are for quite a while. But they all do in the end.

That is what I mean about any man who wants to prove me wrong. Proving me wrong wouldn't take much. It would just require someone to not disappoint on a really fundamental level.

I've recently decided that I'm just out now. I still have male friends etc but I won't have a relationship again. Men, as a class, just aren't worth it.

That's the thing @SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad
There are only 2 people in this world I truly hate.
And neither of those are my Exs.
They are both my sisters abusive Exs.

And I take back what I said.
I do know one decent man.
My dad is truly a wonderful man.

So much bitterness from some here, it's absolutely horrible. What sort of creature wishes misery on other people, just because they've suffered it?

And if men are all shits who cheat then so are women. Otherwise who the fuck are the men cheating with?

But as I said, I'm happy and secure in my relationship. My husband hasn't cheated, isn't cheating and I'd be astounded if he did in future. Likewise any other shitty behaviour.

And if men are all shits who cheat then so are women. Otherwise who the fuck are the men cheating with?

But it's not just cheating that makes someone not 'decent'.

No but that's the repeated message being given here. That your partner hasn't cheated yet as far as you know, but they will.

No wonder so many people struggle to find a partner with that sort of bitchy, horrible mindset.

there's a wealth of science on personality, and none of it says that having a particular set of genitals makes you an arsehole

Agreed, but you missing another factor which is society and conditioning. I am raising boys and genuinely shocked by the conditioning that happens. As they develop a really strong competitive side seems to kick in. That seems to be natural development. This however drives some positive actions (such as sports) but many is negative and I think this is where the "arsehole" behaviours start. By teen years I have seen competition for how many girlfriends you can "get" cause disrespectful behaviours. Being alpha in a peer group isn't associated with being decent. Some boys never get like this, lots do as they are part of the culture, some grow out of it but many remain stuck in this emotionally immature way of proving their worth.

I am hoping my sons turn out differently and I work hard to do so but it has shocked me how much I am pushing against the pressures that come from male culture. Some workplaces are still very much of this laddish culture and enables this emotional immaturity to flourish. Those "lads" are not decent men

No but that's the repeated message being given here. That your partner hasn't cheated yet as far as you know, but they will

But people can only share their experiences and if that is their experience...

In my 26 years of adulthood/relationships, I've had a couple of LTRs and a number of shorter flings.

I've been cheated on by pretty much all of them. There was only one I felt confident wouldn't ever. That, whatever else he might do, he wouldnt do that. I discovered recently that he did.

He took a girl home from a club on a night out that I didn't go on. I never had any concerns about him going out without me - was just pleased he was having fun. And that's only the one I know about.

So, yeah, in my experience that is exactly the way it goes.

But it isn't the only thing that matters.

I wonder if it's because, as women (mostly), we can find it easier to reason through some less-than-ideal behaviours displayed by other women, but less easy to do so when men display behaviours we don't like?

Women is short tempered and snappy? - Her kids are running her ragged, she's overworked and under appreciated and has no help in the house.

Woman uncommunicative and unwilling to engage? - Maybe she's depressed, needs a holiday..etc etc

We find it easier to put ourselves in the position of other women because we too have been stressed and depressed. Men also can be stressed and depressed but the reasons and inciting incidents tend to be diffeent and maybe less relatable, so we are slower to reason them through.

Maybe that's why, as women, we are damning men, rather than saying, 'yup, pretty much everyone else is a shit, deep down.'

A lot of my ex's haven't been bad men, they've been inexplicable men - the one who tidied the shed when we had people coming and the house was a mess, the one who walked twenty feet in front of me whenever we were out, the one who kept me up all night 'talking to me' and wouldn't let me sleep... Not bad. Just behaviour I couldn't comprehend, and therefore live with.

Techway

Completely agree.

My son is one of the quiet, nerdy, unpopular boys (well, men. He's 20 now). He's not 'laddish' in any way whatsoever and tries to he decent and kind and, I think, mostly gets it right.

Bit the world (read 'other men') isn't particularly easy for, or kind to, men like him.

TheBats

From your own experiences it's inevitable you're going to have a jaded (at best) view of men and this is echoed by many others on here.

Your son is of that age where women in his age group may not have developed that level of distrust against men which no doubt many will over time. If he wants to, I'd probably advise he makes the best of that when he can even since as he gets older he'll be seen by many as just another untrustworthy man in the pool, no matter how decent a person he is or has at least tried to be.

And it's sad to read up-post that even his current "type" - the decent nice-guy - has already been pigeonholed by some posters and the Lundy-type experts as a particular red-flag. What is a man supposed to do in those circumstances? He may as well just ditch the decency and be the shit he's apparently programmed to be.

It kills me inside that I look back on life and see how much I was overlooked by trying to be a good, decent person in my 20s and 30s. I still aspire to that in my heart but part of me now just wants to turn my back on that. If you can't beat them, join them, and all that... and if that's clearly only to be expected of me, then (and I hate myself for saying it) why not?

I have to say I don't agree with a lot of the negativity around there being no decent men. I've had no luck finding one recently but I strongly believe its because I;m using dating apps which clearly hosts a lot of 'nutters' and that includes the women.
I do think there are lots of decent men out there and I know a lot of them (all attached). Sadly I'm just struggling to find one that I'm attracted to.
I definitely think reading this forum has made me WAY more aware of 'red flags' than I would ever have been and I do sometimes worry it can go too far though. I'm constantly looking for red flags now and sometimes I worry I confuse 'red flags' with someone who is just really bloody keen on me.

Imagine a thread made by men slagging off all women. There would be an outcry.

Are there any truly decent women out there ??

It kills me inside that I look back on life and see how much I was overlooked by trying to be a good, decent person in my 20s and 30s

What does that mean? You were not dating or couldn't find the right person to settle with? Many people,male & female are single in their 20s & 30s and it doesn't mean you change into someone unpleasant. The advice on MN to women who are single at this age is to enjoy life, have hobbies and don't lower your standards and your partner will appear when you don't expect it. Same applies to men.

@TheBatsHaveLeftTheBellTower, my sons tell me of the "banter" and it is cruel to other boys and disrespectful to women. In my opinion it is way worse than girls at similar age as boys also have to ignore it. They cannot snitch or cry bully as that leads to more bullying.

The laddish behaviour is clearly from a deep seated need to put others down to raise themselves up, rather than be open about feeling unconfident. The need to suppress and ignore negative feelings starts early, from around 7 and leads to very unhealthy ways of processing difficult feelings which continue in adulthood.
Coping skills seem to be - Feeling invalidated, get attention from another woman, feeling a bit sad, have a few more beers/drugs and spend time away from family with the boys etc.

I spend so much more of my time with sons, trying to counter the lack of emotional intelligence they face outside home. Their Dad has zero emotional intelligence but is intelligent & sporty and successful career wise. He was abusive and had an affair as a way of processing his difficult emotions.

Imagine a thread made by men slagging off all women. There would be an outcry

Don't be silly, of course there wouldn't. There are loads of threads on forums dedicated to slagging women off. There is no outcry.

I don't write off all men, I know many who are happily married and the common trait is emotional intelligence.

Imagine a thread made by men slagging off all women. There would be an outcry.

Imagine a thread made by ethnic minorities discussing their wariness and fear of White people based on horrifying lived experience of bullying, prejudice and outright violence, rape and murder.

Would that be okay? Of course it would and you'd probably be right in there defending the right of those people to share their own experiences and fear.

But not women. We need to shut up and take it.

Also, "slagging off women" doesn't need a thread.

It's embedded in our entire fucking culture and lived by us every day with strained smiles and nods. 😬 ... 😠

Techway
What does that mean? You were not dating or couldn't find the right person to settle with? Many people,male & female are single in their 20s & 30s and it doesn't mean you change into someone unpleasant

Back then I had lots of female friends. More than I had male friends (I wasn't into the laddish culture which was in its heyday in the early 90s). But not one showed the slightest romantic interest in me (I imagine they probably all expected me to out myself at any moment ). If I did muster the courage to ask anyone out I was always rejected, without fail. "Too nice".

And that's the point. If I wasn't "too nice" at least I might have had some fun and companionship back then. Decency was a shit policy for me. And over time it's jaded my view on things too, quite possibly to the level that I'm becoming unpleasant. I wish that wasn't the case.

I only had long term relationships with men who seemed wonderful and I thought I could truly trust. My ex-husband was sleeping around while I was working and looking after the kids. When we met he was fantastic. I couldn’t fault him. Everyone said how great he was. Nobody had a bad word to say against him. When he left after 7 years, everyone thought I had done something to cause it because it would’ve been so ‘out of character ‘ for him to betray me. That was despite the fact I never cheated in my life! I had the proof of at least 4 women he’d been with and I cleared my name to our ‘friends’. I wasn’t going to be made out to be at fault when I’d been nothing but a good wife and mother. I had a couple of brief relationships after that with good men but they found it difficult I had children and I respected their decisions to end it with me. The kids came first and I couldn’t be going out on dates whenever I fancied which was clearly what they wanted.
I met a long term partner and he seemed great too. His friends raved about him and he really seemed to care. I fell for it. We were engaged after about 3 years. He found reasons to call it off as I discovered I was expecting. He was never the same person and I regret every second I spent with him in the next 6 years. He’s a good dad, but he doesn’t love me. He cheated on me with someone much younger and constantly lies to me. Again, when I told my close friends, they were even stunned he had cheated. When we broke up, because of his betrayal, he had a go at me that his mum cried over it. He doesn’t accept he is the one who caused it all. I didn’t realise until recently but I have never been so unhappy and depressed in my life. We aren’t together anymore but he still lives here and is supposedly moving out soon. I can’t wait to have that stress lifted.
I really really wanted to have a happy family and genuinely have happiness. I really thought I had chosen good men and now I can’t trust myself to pick anyone new because my decisions are always so bad. I’d love to meet someone new who is genuinely a good person and will treat me how I treat them, but I think it’s an unreasonable dream.
I think all the really good, honest men are quite rightly spoken for.

This is hilarious. As if slagging off men is the equivalent of protecting female rights or ethnic minority.
Totally conflating arguments to justify being bitter

Agree, the decent men are probably married. But not all (and more than you may think) married ones are decent.

my counsellor said I should aim for a widower. Anyone single at my age is too risky.

I'm not sure there's a widower category on OK Cupid.