Are there any truly decent men out there?

[LemonFritz]

I thought I had an amazing husband, minor flaws and human, but wonderful. Turns out he is not.

Are there any truly decent men out there who are considerate, genuinely view women as equals in all ways and are not porn addicts?

Why is there always a man who comes on to tell us that men are victims of domestic violence too?

Quite right. Now sweep it back underneath the carpet where it belongs this instant.

Is there not a dadsnet where you can all discuss your problems with women?

No, there isn't. Not one that's anything remotely close to on a par with MN.

And therein lies the problem?

Is there not a dadsnet where you can all discuss your problems with women?

@SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad, yes surely with all the horrific things women do, dadsnets should be awash with reverse posts like these?

Err, nope!

Well, I think it is pretty legitimate @gorrisandhorace, when somebody directly says to me that the reason I don't have negative attitudes towards women, is because I haven't had to experience prejudice, violence etc from them; for me to point out that, in fact I have. And I'm still not prejudiced towards women.

As for your dadsnet point, mumsnet is not gender exclusive. I'm a parent, who has joined a parenting site.

All I was advancing here is a view that sex does not determine personality, and that prejudice (whether male female, or female to male) is not exactly a good thing. Shouldn't be too controversial - there's a wealth of science on personality, and none of it says that having a particular set of genitals makes you an arsehole. And the law is pretty clear that sex, religion, disability, race etc are not a legitmate basis on which to discriminate. But what the hell - that is apparently too controversial a view for some of you. I shall leave you to your bigotry.

Whilst woman on man violence does exist, I'm not denying that SlightlyMisplaced and I certainly don't want to diminish your experience, the third of DV victims that are male are mostly suffering at rhe hands of a same-sex partner in a homosexual relationship.

I think the figure is 98% of DV is perpetrated my men.

But, I shall still bash away arguing for the existence of decent men!

Certainly not 98% and don't forget many men won't report the abuse due to current 'stigmas' which is very sad.

Gender of victim and perpetrator
 Four times as many women as men are killed by a current or former partner (ONS, 2001-2013)
 In 2013-14, 93% of defendants in domestic violence court cases were male and 84% of victims
were female (CPS Violence Against Women and Girls Crime Report, 2014)
 In 2009-10, women were the victims of 73% of domestic violence incidents. In 81% of
incidents, the offender was male (Home Office, 2011)
 89% of all those who had experienced 4 or more incidents of domestic violence were women
(Domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking: Findings from the British Crime Survey, Sylvia
Walby and Jonathan Allen, 2004)

But these are quite old stats.

Interesting.....
According to the ABS, 89 per cent of males and 67 per cent of females who were victims of physical assault reported that the offender was male.

Michael Brandenburg said that, in his 25 years experience, where there was domestic violence against men, it tended to be perpetrated by other male family members.

Plenty of women also don't report because they are sadly often assumed to be trouble making and lying by friends and neighbours who will absolutely trip over themselves trying to be "neutral" aka take the husband's side.

When's the last time you heard of any man being frozen out by friends and family for coercive control? Even for slapping her around "a bit". Nope. Neutrality. Like Switzerland.

Poor old men, eh? So tuff. 🐶

I really do think there’s been some serious overgeneralisation here.

98% of perpetrators of domestic violence being men (while a horrible statistic) does not mean that most men are perpetrators of domestic violence. And we shouldn’t suggest that’s the case.

If all the men you are meeting are shits, then it’s worth considering what it is that is drawing you to shits. And if all your friends’ partners are shits, then it’s worth pondering why your social circle is like that. Because it’s is objectively not true that a men are awful. Or that the vast majority of men are doing something awful that their wife is ignorant of or deluded about.

If I think about my social circle, the vast majority of my friends’ husbands or partners are perfectly decent human beings. Even where their relationships have broken down, it has been a case of growing apart/not being right for each other rather than an affair/abuse/unreasonable awfulness. The cases of break ups where a husband has cheated or done something terrible are notable because they are not standard.

Of course, no one knows what is going on in other people’s relationships for certain. But there really is no reason to insist that almost all men are dreadful and women who think their partner is a good one are credulous fools.

Nor is it the case that other women just have lower standards than people insisting that there are no good men. Maybe they’ve just genuinely found someone whose foibles really are something they can live with.

And saying that we shouldn’t overgeneralise is not some NAMALT defensiveness. It’s perfectly possible to recognise issues without overgeneralising.

Indeed, overgeneralising prevents us from properly addressing issues.

@WooMaWang So you're basically victim blaming then? What type of women are we to attract such dreadful men?

Thanks for that, but fuck off yeah?

I think in parliament yesterday the guy saying to Jo Swinson ‘sit down darlin’ when she was having her say, says a lot about a certain type of bloke - and there’s a lot of em—. I think ‘decent ‘ though comes in many ways, the vast amount of comments on MN aren’t about actual Physical DV, but other ways of making people unhappy/miserable or at risk. I am always amazed at the number of women in particular who have no idea of family income and just get’allowances’ married or not. Ladies, know your position whether you are working outside the home or not, don’t move in with guys , especially when you have kids , not marry and house and savings all in their name etc and especially if you don’t gave your own money or job to fall back on.

Laughing my head off at the few men who have posted with their oh so enlightened view of treating everyone the same regardless of gender, creed etc. Do you realise how stupid you sound?

No. I’m not victim blaming @Sadiesnakes. If women are to avoid being victims then it’s important to talk about the things that are contributing to that, including their own choices.

A key thing that support services and programmes (like the freedom programme) do is to help women to recognise problematic situations and actions so that they can avoid them. And (having been in an abusive relationship), I can personally say that learning to recognise when I’m ignoring things or making poor choices has been really important for me.

If one finds oneself in a situation where all the men they know are awful, then it is helpful to them if they can think about how they’ve come to associate exclusively with awful men. Most people will know some men that are shits (we all do) but they will also know some perfectly decent men too.

@WoomaWang, I agree with you about being careful about generalisations.
However, some things can be generalised. The fact that mysoginy exists and that it influences the behaviour of every man is one of them. In which way and how much will be variable but there is no way that said men arent affected because its so present absolutely everywhere.
(this affects women too btw!)
I dont think that you can move from that withi out learnign a lot about yourelf and doing some work. Except that men dont have the need to do it as such as it doesnt affect them and they are likely to not see it all (being in a position of priviledge). Whereas women do and have no choice but to do that work to protect themselves.

My rejection of 'men' is nt actually a rejection of men as such. It is a rejection of the latent sexism amnd mysoginy in our society. I just happn to also think it is so deep that very very few men from my generation will have done the work necessary to stop behaving according to those 'rules'. And I am not willing to spend time and effort to 'teach them' how to be respectful towards me when they can so towards other men. Nor am I ready to blur my boundaries again and accept stuff 'because poor him doesnt know better'

@catpunsfreakmeowt

Yeah, you're right. Believing that people who share a characteristic such as gender aren't automatically all the same is stupid.

Believing that there is no decent human being of the opposite sex is rational.

My bad.

@SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad you don’t understand. Most women regular experience sexual abuse (most low level verbal abuse but for menu it goes beyond that) and disrespectful attitudes more generally from multiple men both known and unknown to them on a regular basis (multiple times a week typically) from the age of about 13 onwards. It’s only natural that many women end up learning a prejudice which is repeatedly confirmed. When you can’t walk down the street without men yelling graphic obscenities from you (with accompanying hand actions) then get back to us.

I get that, @BogglesGoggles. You're actually talking to an ally in tackling the utterly reprehensible behaviour that some men are capable of. I strongly believe in confronting that behaviour wherever it arises. And I recognise the structural inequalities in society that mean life isn't a level playing field.

In a Dad's Facebook group I'm part of, when some individuals go off on misogynistic rants, there's a lot of us call them out on it.

I've seen the guys whose gaze lingers for too long on my 14 year old daughter.

I've had the very, very firm conversation with the guy in his 50s who works for me, who seemed just a little too 'friendly' towards the uncomfortable-looking 19 year old apprentice.

I've had long conversations with my two daughters about the attitudes they will encounter as they grow, and take a deliberate, conscious approach to building their confidence and their self-worth so that they will never take shit from anyone.

I've called out my mate after his divorce, when he wasn't pulling his weight as a Dad, and expecting his ex to pick up the slack.

I get it, and I condemn all of that totally, and without reservation.

But, if your response to that is to promote the view that there is no such thing as a good man, and to conclude that there are no decent men because of the actions of some, then I call that out too. You don't defeat hate with more hate.

@SimplyMisplacedDad no, that is not my response. I’m rational enough not to hold this view myself. My response would be not to hold women who have been traumatised into holding that belief to the standards of a rational person and making shitty comments to them. In many of your posts you are belittling women who have learned this through a life time of harassment and abuse. By belittling them instead of engaging with them you are perpetuating the the tactic culture that allows men to justify themselves. Next time instead of thinking about how you have treated men on the internet think about how you have treated women on this thread.

This isn’t about men, like you said there are plenty of decent men who would never behave this way. This is about women who have been systematically abused on a societal level into fearing men.

Unfortunately @SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad
Even though all your examples are v admirable , they do absolutely zilch to convince me that you aren’t abusive/pervy/etc behind closed doors.
In fact sadly for you .... I see your attempts to come across a mr perfect really threatening
This is because the guys that have worked hardest to promote the good guy image in public have all been the biggest cunts behind closed doors. I’m sorry, but that’s been my experience.
It’s dreadful. You telling other guys how to be proper would be a massive red flag for me. Bad isn’t it?!

Also I don’t hate.
In fact I love.
But to take a gamble on a man turning out to be a good one?
When there are children and money and property involved? An intimate life partner?
It’s a risk I just wouldn’t take again. I’d rather be lonely.

Ah, screw it - I quit. Let's all just hate each other.

SlightlyMisplaced, I've seen too many of your posts on this site to believe you an "ally" of any female, be they child or adult.

You don't get ally credit for throwing out a few good deeds which you can then cash in to espouse questionable opinions later. You can't pick up and put down the ally baton when you feel like it. Like the burden of being female, you have to carry that baton 24/7.

Including on message boards.

Which is the attitude a lot of men seem to have.
"If she doesn’t want to fall for my charms it’s because she’s a MAN HATER "
Nothing at all to do with the fact that so many of us have to misfortune to tune in to the subtlest of red flags in the first instance which make even a date a waste of time.
And I’m finding it impossible to find a guy who is red flagless .

I don't think there are, no.

There's a current post on here from a lady who would have sworn on her life that he would not be the cheating type. Turns out he had a 16 month affair. And she was asking should she forgive him. She was clearly in a lot of pain and it was obvious she was never going to be able to get past it.

I've never met a truly decent man in my life. I've been married and had a few other relationships. Turns out I'm really happy being single and in control of my own life.