But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Belinda you're in the right here, I've seen this dynamic before, The golden child who is a sexual predator/offender
it's a twisted kind of logic but when you look at it you can see that The golden child does double duty here, he is elevated not because he is inherently good, rather because they find him a convenient tool to use for their own purposes (usually tied up with power and control) they position him on a pedestal so as to emphasize and point at your lowly status by comparison.
The reason they put him before you, even though he is dangerous/despicable is that this makes him a more powerful tool, they can crush you all the better by letting you know that you are beneath a despicable person
They are attracted by all the emotion and the trauma I think, it draws then in .....it's like an energy supply for them

And I'm being made to feel bad.....for protecting my kids from my sibling who has complex MH needs and is a convicted sex abuser.

Belinda, I could have put money on that being the issue from something you said in your first post. I got it in the neck from doing much the same by protecting my much younger DSis from my father's repellent brother. I'd disliked, distrusted and avoided him from my earliest childhood years because he gave me the creeps.

Visiting my little sister one day, I was dismayed to find the repellent one had turned up for an open-ended stay. He was very cagey about why he was there - and so was M - saying only that he had been charged with something, it was all a big mistake, etc etc, but he had been "advised by the police" to stay at an address out of area "for his own protection".

I used to work for the police. I knew he was lying.

I got M to one side and she grudgingly gave up the details but it was hard work dredging them out of her. He'd been convicted - not merely charged - of indecent assault on two little girls known to him and had been remitted to Crown Court for sentence but bailed on condition that he stayed at an approved address and had no contact with children.

My nine year old sister's presence in her own home was clearly just a terribly inconvenient fact and best overlooked said M "as he is your father's only brother and after all, family comes first".

I told M I was going to pack my little sister's things up and take her to live at my house for safety and I was also going to contact the court to let them know he was in breach of his bail conditions. "But that means he will go to jail", screeched M, "and what would people think?"

Yes, I did remove DSis to my house, telling her it was for a movie night and fun sleepover. The next day, M informed me that Dad had told the repellent one to pack his bags and be gone. But I bore the brunt of her anger for some considerable time after that for "overreacting" and "washing our dirty linen in public".

You stick to your guns, Belinda. You are protecting and nurturing and caring for your children, exactly as a mother should. All credit to you, and all strength.

Hero, thank you for the hug. It was much needed. Dad was discharged from hospital on Tuesday; I got a curt message from middle sister. I'd visited him on the Monday and he looked terrible so it was a surprise to get her message. I do not know whether he made a miraculous recovery in 24 hours or whether the hospital simply cannot do any more for him. DSis is none the wiser either. We are back to waiting.

I see the paedophile uncle is a common factor, he is protected to preserve the family name and the victims are thrown under the bus
I'm increasingly tempted to confront my despicable lying s* of a father, I would like to do it in front of his girlfriend, I wonder what she would think about fact that her beloved sympathised with the paedophile who abused his own daughter.
I'm going to wait until my current difficulties are resolved and I am in a stronger position.

Singinglily it's so appalling when your parents behave like this😞

When you are so far off your parents' radar and they are so supremely focused on their own wishes and "rights" and "needs", Ulterego, it's hardly surprising they behave like this. My DSis has never mattered one iota to our mother from the moment she was conceived. I know. I was 16 when M was carrying her. I know what M said and did at the time. My DSis never stood a chance.

Irony No. 1 is that these special unique people are all the same. Depressingly predictable Cluster B charmers, every one of them.

Irony No. 2 is that they so often claim to be worried by what "other people" think, when in truth, other people would be pretty appalled by their behaviour and their willingness to compromise their children's safety and wellbeing for the sake of always being "right".

It's up to us, all of us, to do what's right, to be strong, to be kind to ourselves and - above all else - to love and protect and distance the next generation from that truly dysfunctional family dynamic.

Marmaduke and Walkinthegreen are both asking about sending letters/confronting parents, as recommended in the back of the Toxic Parents book. I asked Attila that very question, 4 years ago, and she advised me not to, and I'm grateful for that advice. I never got that last confrontation, and maybe that would have been therapeutic, but when I think about it now, there's as much chance that it would have been totally unsatisfying and maybe also retraumatising. Speaking for myself, what I would have wanted was a confrontation with the rageous persona she wore for most of my childhood, but there's no guarantee I'd have seen that - as soon as they can see that you've rumbled them, they switch to another persona, and I imagine what I would have got is that sort of "I'm sorry we couldn't always afford to take you to the ballet" kind of gaslighting bullshit that she usually reserved for outsiders. Again entirely my personal opinion here, but I think that if you've experienced long term sustained emotional abuse or neglect by one or both parents, they have probably got the sort of serious mental health problems that prevent people from having a significant relationship with anyone - they lack the skills of communication and empathy, the theory of mind, to really relate to another person, even if the sort of relating you're talking about is one where you go "why were you always such a bitch to me" and they go "fuck you I tried my best". And that means you're never going to get the validation of them admitting that what happened to you happened, let alone apologising for it or changing it. And I think that accepting that is a big part of the work of recovery.

Singinglily I hope you're holding together. As you say, he might have been sent home for palliative care only, my dad had lung cancer and he was at home for about two months I think before he died. Would you be able to ask the GP? Would they give you information?

Steve hang in there, you did a really good thing this week.

My DSis has never mattered one iota to our mother from the moment she was conceived. I know. I was 16 when M was carrying her. I know what M said and did at the time. My DSis never stood a chance
Singinglily I'm very aware my mother did not want to be a parent, would have aborted had she the option. What you say about your own mother interests me, I wonder if you would be willing to share a bit more about what you describe?
I see my mother as someone who ought never to have had children, just bad luck for me I was landed with her, I'd like to get some sense of what a person like her may have been experiencing and thinking.
Obviously I understand you might prefer not to, in which case that's cool 😊

I think the letters and showdown confrontations represent the glimmer of hope that we can fix it all and have a happy ending.

It’s fine to daydream and plan, and maybe have that confrontation with a councillor in the place of the parent. Get your closure there, perhaps?

While we cling on to the hope of repair we’re stuck in the process of re-building our selves. Some things really are too broken to fix.

I know that nothing can be fixed Hero I want to see the look on his face, I want to be the Victor.

Ah ulter an actual crime was committed against you, you are owed justice in my opinion. I know you want revenge, I understand. X

it would have been totally unsatisfying and maybe also retraumatising
as soon as they can see that you've rumbled them, they switch to another persona
I know you speak the truth here Toomuch
The only way to deal with it is some form of retreat, disengagement, leave them to die on the hill that they chose for themselves

Yes I do want revenge, or vindication, also feel that maybe when they're dead I'll be able to somehow regrow the damaged parts.

M had several miscarriages after middle sister, Ulterego, and was confident her pregnancy would go the same way. She was positively looking forward to it and practically willed to happen (my deepest sincerest apologies to anyone who has suffered the heartbreak of a miscarriage) but the scans confirmed it was a healthy baby. She made an appointment with our family doctor to demand an abortion. We were living abroad then and she dragged me along - heaven knows why - although she didn't tell me the purpose of the appointment beforehand.

The doctor explained that she didn't meet the then-strict criteria and tried to persuade her to see a new baby as a blessing (he was a kind and gentle Dutchman who had escaped the Nazis as a child and to him, all human life was precious). M held in her anger at being thwarted until she left her surgery but poured all of her rage over me all the way home. She also threatened to report the doctor to the equivalent of the GMC. Clearly I was meant to be her witness if the appointment didn't go her way. (It didn't come to that but I'd have told the truth, by the way).

A fortnight later, Dad got my siblings and me together to explain that we were moving back to the UK as M was "homesick". It was a decision that came out of the blue and we were not asked how we felt. It messed up my education by cutting it short. In any case, we'd only been living there for ten years by then and if she had suffered homesickness, she had gone against the habits of a lifetime and suffered in silence.

Selling our house took longer than M had planned and so she took us back to the UK while Dad stayed behind to wrap things up.

The real purpose of the move then became clear. She had hoped to take advantage of UK abortion laws which were more liberal. However, she was too far along and so had to face the fact that she would give birth.

I saw my DSis when she was less than 24 hours old and fell in love with her. By then, I'd turned 17. I fed her, changed her, sang to her, told her bedtime stories, taught her the alphabet, how to tell time and how to tie her shoes. M took to her bed and abdicated all responsibility.

When DSis plucked up courage at the age of 14 and asked if she was adopted - it seemed the only reasonable explanation - Dad explained "you have to understand, your poor mother only ever wanted three children". Well, it's just the sort of thing that any normal decent parent would say to Child No. 4, isn't it?

I am not confident that we will ever understand what our mothers were thinking or experiencing, Ulterego. I'm not sure M understands her own thought processes other than what she wants, she must have, regardless of the impact on anyone else. It's selfishness squared.

Another poster on another thread believes it boils down to shotgun weddings, unwanted pregnancies and limited contraception in previous generations. I think she has a point. M believes herself to be a good Catholic, assured of her place in heaven (oh yes, I am aware of the irony). I suppose if you believe that you and God share the same thoughts and qualities and principles, then it's a rational progression to believe that God approves of everything you do, whatever you do.

I'm too much of a heathen to think I'm right all the time though

Another poster on another thread believes it boils down to shotgun weddings, unwanted pregnancies and limited contraception in previous generations. I think she has a point.

I think so too. My M was a very late last child for my GM and has said previously that were it not for my GM's strong Christian beliefs, she's have "ended up in the abortion bucket". Her father died when she was young and from there she was expected to act like a mini-adult until she moved out at 16.

Another poster on another thread believes it boils down to shotgun weddings, unwanted pregnancies and limited contraception in previous generations
I think it's certainly a big factor.
Thank you for sharing what happened Singinglily, your sister is so lucky to have you, you're like a guardian angel.
What a despicable thing to say to a child, how could he just crush his own daughter like that, look her in the eye and tell her that she is just a problem who was inflicted upon her mother.
If only I understood all this before

@toomuchtooold I think I would just like to unleash all the rage I've kept inside over the years. I just want to, in the words of someone recently, (soz forgot who said it) 'dump a big bag of shit on their doorstep' or words to that effect. I loved that image! But I see what you're saying, they'd probably turn it all around in their tried and tested fashion. Urgh!
I'm 4 weeks into the 'Silent treatment' from them now ha ha the ridiculous people that they are. I went past their house and saw their car was there on Monday, so I reckon they will be pretending to their 'friends' at the caravan site that they are still coming back over home to have the kids on a Monday and Tuesday. Keeping up appearances eh? I'd bet my house on it, the dicks.

As for the shotgun wedding etc theory, well my mam tried for a few years to have me but when she shacked up with my delightful stepfather I became an inconvenient reminder that another man was there before him. Or that's how I've always felt. 🤷‍♀️

they will be pretending to their 'friends' at the caravan site that they are still coming back over home to have the kids on a Monday and Tuesday
my guess...part of their self image is that they are grandparents who have a strong bond with and are adored by the grandchildren.
Their status in the eyes of the friends depends on this being the case, they will not tolerate or 'allow' it to be the case that the grandchildren have rejected them, they will have to spin things somehow to frame the situation in their favour.

How are you feeling now 4 weeks in?

I think after a period of estrangement you can potentially take the reins and make sure that everything is on your terms from now on, don't explain yourself to them or apologize for anything just go ahead and do it.
or sack them off completely!

@Ulterego yes, it's defo part of the image they like to portray. That's what started the whole kick off wasn't it, them bragging how they spoil our kids (bet they forgot to mention the fact that I sent 130 quid up with them so that they weren't out of pocket if they took them out anywhere 🙄😂)
I'm feeling decent thanks, the longer it goes on the more it cements in my mind what a pair of fucking fruit loops they are. Had my first psychotherapy last week and I'm going to go weekly so they are actually doing me a favour with this enforced moratorium on our relationship. Saves me having to do it eh? I'm hoping the therapy will allow me to make sense of my feelings about my mother and then I can make a decision that is right for me and the kids. X

The therapist said 'it sounds like the writings on the wall' interns of my relationship with them. So I think it's mostly just how do I go about it. That's what my main concern is at the minute x

Hi can I join? I’m on week six of not talking to my mum. I have posted in the past years but under a different name.
My son has ASD and my mum was horrible about him in public. My sister is no contact. Hasn’t seen her for years but talks now and again on the phone. However I’m the sucker who stays in touch. Dm has in the past been abusive to my eldest who hasn’t really seen her since. Dm adores my second son so he’s ok kind of, but she seems to the have started on my youngest two. I felt like my head coming clearer a few years back, realising my mum wasn’t just a nasty spiteful person but a abuser. However it seems my boundaries are still all wrong. It’s a mess.

To top it all off I think mil is a narc and dfil is and never has been interested in the kids. I know 1000% my mum will never change. I have know from a tiny kid. But I still stupidly to a degree want some version of normal. Kids to know grandparents but all three of them are totally pathetic at that role. Getting my head around the fact that I have exposed my kids to her abuse and feeling .... I don’t know how I feel about that. I have been brainwashed to think everything is normal.

*Marmaduke, I find that a period without communication really helps you to to get a clear picture of these people, I suppose it's just that the fog clears when they're not around to keep on belching out more of it🌬️?
sounds good with the psychotherapy😊 and it sounds as if more and more therapists are seeing no contact as as a normal thing to do do with disordered and dysfunctional people?

*Welltroddenpath, that sounds like a very heavy load that you are dealing with 😣 you say your mother adores your second son, we could reframe that and say that your mother finds it convenient to adore your second son so as to better crush your other children by comparison.
All of them are just tools that she uses to make her feel powerful and in control of people

I meant to say hi and welcome *welltrodden 😊

Yes there is always a golden child (or grandchild) Welltroddenpath. It's all part of their game. They treat their favourite almost like an extension of themselves. At the time it seems like this person has it easy but in the long run it does a huge amount of damage. The golden child can became enmeshed, develop a codependency with the narc and end up feeling responsible for their parent or grandparent's happiness. They will often be isolated from their siblings, who will suffer the more obvious abuse. The grandparent could also try to manipulate the child against you.

I totally understand the desire for a bit of normality, but the reality is that these people are not capable of loving, healthy relationships. It really is much better to have no grandparents than to have abusive ones who could cause a lot of damage.

Hello everyone.
My problem is a narcissistic mother (I think). Classic case of golden child, black sheep and a brother who isn't interested. My mother has always had anger issues with me which leak out from behind a false facade. She can be sickly sweet , calling me darling and being very nice on the face of it, then suddenly make a really horrible remark.
She plays her grandchildren off against each other and projects all her rage against me onto my daughter. My daughter is the only one who sees her dark side so to speak, along with me. My siblings think my mother is wonderful and can do no wrong. I find it really disturbing how my mother can switch between personas, she is like Jekyll and Hyde.
There is a really nasty spiteful woman behind this lovely little old lady act.

I wish I could disappear and not leave an address. I was NC with her for three years a long time ago, something she has never forgiven me for, although she has never spoken to me directly about it.

My sister and I do not really get on as she is hand in glove with my mother, phones her a lot, confides in her and taps her for money. My brother never visits her unless he wants something.

The scenario has got worse lately as I have been trying to sort out my mother's affairs and feel I am taking on more and more responsibility, however I dislike my mother increasingly and find it very hard to be around her. I am also very upset on my daughter's behalf at the way my mother treats her . Negative comments, spiteful asides, rudeness. Just enough that she can't be pulled up on anything but it's like a stealth attack under the cover of darkness. I hate the whole thing so much.