But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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August 2008
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Sconesat4, that all sounds familiar, I'm sorry to say. Muttering under her breath so only you can hear her, slipping a cutting comment in for no reason, pretending it was "just a joke" when it clearly wasn't. It's incessant and exhausting. No wonder you and your daughter find it so difficult to be around her.

I'm wondering how old your daughter is, and whether your mother's behaviour with her changed as your daughter got older.

Hi Sconesat

What you write is very typical of narcissistic family structures.

How is it you got lumbered with your mother's financial affairs?. I would seriously consider relinquishing all such responsibility to someone else like the Court of Protection. You have a choice and you still have free will; you do not have to deal with all of this or any of your family. Both you and for that matter your DD need to have nothing to do with any of your family of origin. You were NC for three years; what got you back into their dysfunctional fold?. Like welltroddenpath I think, you've been trained by your mother since early childhood to serve her whilst putting your own needs last.

welltroddenpath

Many adult children of narcissists fall into the trap you've fallen into.

Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists (ACONs) seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction (like your good self).

We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. The NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the narc grandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Narc grandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the narc grandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the narc grandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, etc. as bait.

It is imperative to let yourself know that, without profound evidence to the contrary, your narcissist parent is a narcissist still. You must let yourself know for a fact that your narcissist parent can not be trusted with your most precious responsibility, your children.

It is re

Welltroddenpath

It is hard being the last one who actually bothers with her but she really is not worth bothering with. It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. The only people who tend to bother with such people at all are the people like you who have had special training, i.e. the now adult children of such toxic narcissistic parents.

Do not subject any of your children, let alone your own self, further to her. Maintain your current radio silence!. Read about FOG and have a look also at the Out of the Fog website along with the Daughters of narcissistic mothers website.

It's my own fault really. I took on all the admin and made myself POA to spare stress when she dies. It turned out there was a lot to sort out. At first she was grateful, but now it's become a bit of a tool to get me reeled in. She called me early this morning to ask her to go to the bank with her! I am the one living nearest to her now . I should have thought twice about it all, but if I had been left to sort it all out on her death it would have been a nightmare.
My daughter is 25 but still finds it very hurtful. She doesn't know what to do or say around my mother because my mother gives out such mixed messages. Clearly she is using my da'bughter as a proxy for her own rage against me.
My sister gets the edited version which paints my mother in a saintly light. She doesn't believe my mother can be nasty and vindictive as my sister is the 'golden child'.
I really don't see what i can do to protect myself against her further. As it is I dread seeing her and try to avoid it, which further fuells her rage.

What about if you just refuse?
You can start small but gradually build-up just say no, dismiss her as if she isn't important, after all she's a nasty old b you don't owe her anything, and all your instincts and gut feelings are screaming at you to keep well away from her.
Imagine in your mind just saying 'nah, don't feel like it'
if you practice it gets easier and then you can do it in real life, don't back down, there's nothing she can do

Ah @Sconesat4 I feel for you, I see you feel stuck, could you envisage NC? Your mother must be a canny age I'm guessing? I don't know about the legal ramifications of the POA but it's definitely proving to be a useful tool to keep you hooked in so if you can relinquish it I think you should. But that just my opinion and I don't know how practical this would be. It's good your daughter understands but sad that she has been treated as badly as you. There's no easy solution to situations like this but I think you need to try and work out what you are comfortable with and work towards that. It's all about boundaries really from what I've been reading; you have to decide what is and isn't acceptable and then have a plan for how you will respond if she continues to violate the boundaries. It's hard unlearning the habits of a lifetime but the behaviours we adapted as kids to survive in their company do not serve us well as adults. X

That she hasn't forgiven you the cutting her out for 3 years, this is a GOOD thing, you can capitalise on it
if you do thing she doesn't like she will give you the silent treatment the cold shoulder, that's exactly what you want, just piss her off so much that she doesn't want to speak to you... And then you can just disappear off into the night you can become the 'mythical adult daughter' (MAD😁)...she is rumoured to exist but is never actually seen🧚‍♀️🦄
Voilà! job done

Also, on a more general note, I think it's slowly sinking in for me that sending the letter, doing the 'confrontation' is pretty pointless. I may as well write down what I want to say and read it out to the dog. If they had any capacity to see things from our point of view or consider our feelings they wouldn't have acted the way the did. And I think for me the fact they have now started the same shit with their grandchildren has been very illuminating. They basically want me to accept that my children (who have no ulterior motive) are liars. Well fuck that and fuck them!

Don't forget you can also use the classic lazy husband tool of 'feigned incompetence'
whatever job you're supposed to be doing for her just be really s* at it, be as organised as a herd of cats, as fun to be with an electric eel, as efficient as a tripping hippy etc

Exactly Marmaduke, they're having a fucking giraffe🦒 aren't they

I just had a funny image of you reading the riot act to the dog 🐶😅

It's my own fault really. I took on all the admin and made myself POA to spare stress when she dies

Sconesat4

Yes you did dig yourself a bit of a hole there but there are ways out of this. Hand the responsibility over to someone else; tell the Court of Protection that the relationship has broken down and therefore you are unable to further continue as her P of A. BTW the P Of A ceases on death. In any case give this to someone else!.

You need to protect yourself and your DD from your mother and her carbon copy of her i.e. your sister too by having no contact with either one. If your sister likes her that much then she can operate the P of A instead. You have enough on your plate; you do not need this as well. Your mother (and she is not worthy of being called such either) will fume and rage away but apart from that, what else can she do (other than disinherit you entirely which she probably has done in any event). She has kept you in her iron grip for many years to serve her. Break free entirely of her control.

Not the court of protection. I think you need to contact the Office of the Public Guardian instead.

I'm starting to get a bit worried because my father set up an LPA thing for me with him years ago, he never mentioned it since then I don't really have any idea what I'm supposed to do!

Can I just say MarmadukeM, how very far you’ve come since you first came on here. I’m so happy to see you’ve located your sense of self-preservation, it’s brilliant. It’s bloody hard I know!

@Ulterego the dog is a male border terrier if you want to have a more specific image in your mind 😂Not that I would emotionally abuse the family pet really ha. I have a whicker lamp from IKEA which I am considering seeking some answers and validation from as that would be a more humane method.
@Herocomplex cheers, yes I really feel like I have. The silent treatment has been just what I needed. It's certainly had results, but not the ones they are expecting! This place has been great, loads of good advice from people who actually know what it's like to doubt your own mind! X

Thanks for the welcome all. I always think I’m the only person alive who’s mother doesn’t love her. Sadly that’s far from true.

My mum lives about 80 miles away so thankfully my kids are are still young at all school. She only sees them a few times a year with me. I did years ago leave them with her after bedtime to pop out with dh. Gradually she started to put on highly inappropriate TV while they settling down to sleep to that stopped when we was going out and witnessed it. After that she wasn’t left alone with them. But I should seen that sooner. Thatvas soon as they went upstairs she put on the horror channel knowing they might pop down again asking for a drink. I asked if she could wait a hour or so longer or turn it over when they came back down for settling. She said it’s my house I will do as I please. But it was just one hour every three months.

I confronted her on my past abuse years ago. She denied it. My mil and everyone I tell always say to me “ why don’t you ask her why she did that?” People don’t understand she still is a abuser, it never stopped, just eased off a bit for a few years after I left, enough to keep me on her hook. Or that she has no excuse. Like she can just rationalise beating me because she had pmt or something.

I’m not so sure she is a narcissist. Her personality is weird. No friends, never has had even one friend. Maybe once at work but it was only in the work place. She is extremely socially inempt. There’s no nice charming front for anyone.

I think I need some more therapy. I have had CBT for hoarding ( it’s low level, my house is untidy but I keep it ok for the kids. It’s however a constant thing in my head I battle). I hoarded from a young age to keep my room a mess. That way she could stand at the door and call me a fat ugly stupid cow who was stupid and thick.

I need to see a talking therapist to explain what’s behind my problem. But I worry because of the abusers go on to abuse theory and my kids.

If I was living alone I would fill my house stuffed to the brim to keep myself safe. It isn’t, but inside that’s what I continually won’t to do. Like a subconscious battle daily with myself.

I understand about keeping the house filled to the brim to keep yourself safe, Welltroddenpath. It's like a lucky charm warding off the terrors. I keep the freezer stuffed to bursting as insurance against all the times I went hungry as a child, and I hoard toiletries because I was sent to school as a five year old with unbrushed hair and hand-me-down clothing. It wasn't lack of money, by the way, it was just that I didn't matter. Even now, I panic if I'm down to my last 12 toilet rolls. 💐

Hi welltrodden you seem to have a really good sense of your self, as you know CBT deals with the behaviour not the cause so I think a different kind of talking therapy would probably help you.

There are different types of personality disorder any of which could be at the root of your mothers behaviour but it doesn’t matter, you can’t change her. You’re telling her very clearly that her behaviour is causing you harm and it’s brushed aside as her needs trump yours and your children’s every time.
You sound deeply sad and worried, you’re concerned about your relationship with your children and your own wellbeing.

You can’t change her, but you can change your relationship. For your own sake you need to start putting in place the boundaries you need to make yourself feel safer. The Out of The Fog website helps enormously, I go back to it again and again when I need affirmation.

You can change your life, it’s not easy, but it’s hot to be easier than what’s going on for you right now.

Welltrodden your mum sounds scary and dysfunctional/damaged, I would want to keep well away, it's difficult though when you still feel some sense of obligation and guilt, if you can work on boundaries, sticking to your red lines etc then with the G and O gone there is only F.
Do you think that she is in any way a danger to you?

In my own case I do feel as if I have let go of the O&G, no longer dreading the text from faether, rather looking forward to an opportunity to fine tune my dismissive brush offs.
I feel as if I have vacated the mouse role and I am now playing the cat in this game.
I still fear an open confrontation, I know that he'll spin and have all his excuses ready with his kindly old man twinkly eyes, I dont know what's under that facade but evidence so far is that he'll throw me under the bus in a heartbeat, any threat to his good name is met treated like a deadly attack. I worry that he would find some way to blow up my life if I confront him.
I'll just have to manage him and keep him where I can see him until he's no longer a threat.
Maybe he's still the cat after all :(

But I worry because of the abusers go on to abuse theory and my kids.

It happens in some cases but certainly not all. And it's highly unlikely to happen with someone who sees the situation for what it is and takes action to protect herself and her kids. The ones who become enmeshed and see the abuser's behaviour as normal are the ones more likely to repeat the cycle. You are doing really well.

Thanks, it’s more that I worry about what the person doing the therapy will think iykwim? I have never sat in front of a real person who has a duty to report safeguarding and said “I’m the victim of abuse” I did phone a anonymous helpline last Christmas. I have been upset the last two Christmases more than normal. Because it was around that time two years ago it all dawned on me.

It’s all a irrational fear because my kids aren’t in harms way. I love them dearly. I take them out for day trips, I tell them I love them almost daily. I cuddle, I don’t throw anything back in their faces, I never hit, I try not to shout, I apologise when I cock up. I fight for them even if it makes me unpopular or look stupid, they go to clubs, Etc

It just all still feels dirty. My dirty secret. It’s always this looking for a reason, when there’s none. I didn’t deserve any of it. I was a little child. As far back as I can ever remember. A defenseles toddler

@Welltroddenpath sounds like you are being a great parent to me. I know what you are saying about rationally knowing something but still struggling to believe it. I'd imagine it's self doubt and the other legacies of your childhood that are causing you the worries. I bet your kids think the world of you! I think that if everything you do for them is motivated by love for them then you should do a good enough job, and all we have to be is good enough xx

A good well-trained councillor starts with the perspective that the most important thing they can offer you is their unconditional positive regard and empathy. They build trust with you.

I’m going to suggest that one of your biggest issues is that you’re struggling with a massive sense of shame.

You’re living with a huge amount of fear.

One of the things you need to think about and try to absorb is that none of this is your fault.