But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Very good points! I do not need to feel like a powerless child anymore. I told my therapist that I felt some kind of pity for my mum. I really wish she could’ve been happier and I know it’s not all her fault (her mum was also a narc) as she was emotionally damaged.

I am the same Ulterego and worry daily about whether I’m damaging the kids somehow. I’m keen to break the patterns but terrified I won’t be able to.

Hello, I first posted on the last thread about a week or so ago but have been quiet lately.

I've read some of my childhood diaries since as I feel I need to validate how I'm feeling (and make sure I'm not remembering things wrongly).

Some of the stuff I wrote is so sad...I don't know if it's typical preteen stuff, being angry at your parents. The theme I write about seems to be they kept blaming me for things that I felt weren't my fault, they preferred my younger sibling to me. My older sister was disabled so got away with everything too. It was only me who had to do things for them and expected to behave. I absolutely got told off if I ever expressed my feelings of jealousy or of them having a favourite.

Age 12 'I know I'm jealous of dbro but I suppose is not his fault mum and dad prefer him to me'.

'Here we go again. I hate mum and dad. Just because I didn't want to build dbro playhouse they sent me up here (bedroom). They are also angry I didn't make them a coffee on their anniversary. They only shout at me because dbro is 6 and DSis is (name of disability).'

The saddest though is at 13...
'What I need to improve on. (This was a list) Everything. I am a loser. I am abnormal. My life is not worth living. I feel like killing myself. If it weren't for (my fave boyband) I probably would.'

I also remembered tonight being 4 years old and in hospital having my tonsils taken out. I was wheeled down to theatre on my own in tears. Distraught. My parents have confirmed this in the past as I often remember it. I can't be sure on the reasoning but I know it was a choice they didn't come with me. It's one of my earliest childhood memories. I expect Mum was too upset to come with me and dad stayed with her. But I'd have to check to be sure.

Anyway, despite all this I've finally issued my first 'boundary' today. Last night I sent my parents a message about something funny DS had done. I then get a message from both, worst was my mother, with unsolicited advice about safety (which was an overreaction). So I just replied with 'thank you, but I'm not looking for any advice right now'. No response but no doubt they both had something to say to each other about it. But I feel good for making a start. I'm so sick of unsolicited parenting advice and criticism from M in particular.

I've got toxic parents book on order with the library.

I wanted to ask, when searching for a therapist, what should I be specifically asking for in terms of their experience?

Ulterego and TipTopTap I too worry about the impact this has on my parenting with DS. I'm quite consumed with it all at the moment which makes me feel a bit self absorbed, but I want to fix it (me) for the sake of DS, if no one else.

My dad got married on Monday. When someone asked him in front of my the day before, if he spoke to me and my brother before he proposed, he stated ‘no, why would I? I’m an artist!’ Without any hint of irony. Turns out he asked her before we’d even met her, though denied it completely when I challenged him about that.

Sometimes I wonder if all the bad memories I have are in my head, because there is not even a hint of recognition from him that he may not have been anything but a perfect father.

I don’t know how much longer I can remain in contact with him.

It’s really normal for family members to fall into roles, even when everyone is an adult, reverting to childhood feelings and behaviours because it feels comfortable. The difference for you is perhaps you need to talk about that with your DC’s? Tell them that it’s ok to say things that they think might be difficult for you to hear.
Communicating was damaging for you with your parents, they punished you for speaking out. But you’re not them, are you?
The fact you see how you affect your DC’s and think about why that might not be good for them is important because it shows you value their emotional health. I bet you’re a lot better than you think you are.

Sorry that was to ulter

Etty17, all the advice on here from those who have benefitted from seeing a therapist is that you should contact BACP so that you can be sure it will be someone properly registered and you should specifically ask for someone who has no familial bias. The last thing you need is a therapist who thinks that families should overcome their problems together.

Your diary is heartbreaking but well done for setting your first boundary. It's not a small step as those of us on here know. Expect some pushback though and be ready. You can do this.

Drpeppered, that was such an odd response from your father, especially as he had concealed it from you and your brother. Did your brother think it peculiar too?

Thanks Hero, what you say makes sense😊
it's such a lot to navigate around with these kinds of things, I consider my own situation relatively straightforward since I don't have much in the way of extended family, no siblings no flying monkeys to deal with

Hero is right, Ulterego.

I kind of have this belief that I am inherently damaging to my own children.

No, you are aware of the damage that poor parenting can cause and you are constantly alert to it. That immediately puts you head and shoulders above in the parenting stakes.

Think of NPD as a kind of Catch 22. If you think you might have traits of it and are inflicting those traits on others, you can't possibly have it.

I was thinking a lot about it ulter, I learned to be quiet from an early age, never speak about feelings, but I’m trying so hard to be better with my DC’s. Speak, apologise, listen, hear. It’s hard if you’ve drawn a line around your feelings. I guess we just keep trying.
One of my friends said I was a stoic yesterday, so I’m going to try to be a bit more open and vulnerable I think.

Thanks SingingLily. I've just done a search in my area and there are loads. No idea how to shortlist. Ideally I'd like a chat with 2 or 3 and see who I connect with the most? A few years ago I picked a really bad counsellor. I have had good ones but they were in a different area or NHS only so can't use them.

Thanks Singing hope all going along ok for you. Do you have some nice things to balance the difficult ones right now? I’d like to give you a hug.

Etty hi!

The great thing about good councillors is that they will completely understand that the first meeting might be the only one. They want you to find the person for you. So make an appointment with whoever you’re drawn to, and if it works go forward. If not say thanks, I can’t see that we’re suited. They’re a service you’re paying for, and they want to make a good connection as well.

Don’t be shy, the good ones won’t be offended!

Hello, I'm new to the thread. I came here looking for ideas on dealing with my mother. I had counselling to come to terms with a historical rape and ended up learning how messed up my relationship with my mum was. The counsellor suggested I had attachment issues after being kept at arms length by my mother when I was little.

Since that insight things seemed to fall into place in my mind and I can see now how emotionally neglectful she was. I have made myself the opposite of her with my own kids. But with everyone else, especially my husband I am quite emotionally shut down, even though I dont want to be this way.

I had a big falling out last year with my mother and the way she ranted at me, lied, insulted me and laughed in my face reminded me of how I felt growing up. Helpless, powerless and depressed.

We are now on better terms but I try to keep contact minimal. The trouble is now, any contact we have leaves me angry and depressed and I dont know what the best course of action is. Bring up the past and tell her just how miserable she made me? It will probably cause another falling out but I'm not sure that is even a bad thing right now. When I blanked her last year I felt such relief.

Another thing I'm trying to get my head round is why my friends keep telling me she wasnt that bad. One even told me I was projecting anger from my rape onto my mum!! What makes people think they know more about my childhood than me? I dont want to be the person that complains about their life all the time, but maybe I need to spell it out to one or two of them just how consistently horrible my mum was to me growing up.

Thanks for reading. I think reading toxic parents is my next step, but I am grateful for any advice.

*@Walkinthegreengarden Toxic Parents is a very good book. A massive section of it is (quite rightly) taken up with sexual abuse but it's not only about this. The rest, about emotional and physical abuse and neglect, is so insightful.
How you choose to behave from now on might depend on whether your mother is a narcissist. If she is, there's no point raising your problems with her. I've realised I don't ever have to challenge my father, It would be a waste of my energy. He will not, cannot, ever conceive that he is in the wrong and someone else is right. He doesn't know how to listen and is absolutely incapable of empathy. If your mother is similar, trying to explain your side of the story to her might only harm you.
I've gone low contact. Whenever I feel deep guilt that I've chosen this route I remember how he made me dress up in heels and lipstick and dragged me around his place of work showing me off as his new mistress. How confused I was when some people didn't bat an eyelid that he had yet another woman, and that others sneered at me as though I were dirt while he laughed. That sort of thing. Plenty more memories like that to make me feel less guilty that I want eff all to do with the slimeball who thinks he is God.

I was thirteen at the time.

@Walk, I'm so sorry for all you've been through💐
Ultimately I think you could well be happier with your mother out of your life completely, as for her friends, well birds of a feather flock together... inevitably she would choose people who flatter her and agree with her.
A possible strategy is to to send some kind of communication listing exactly what she has done and how much she has hurt you, this will trigger her Fury and her resultant appalling behaviour will provide you with excellent grounds for cutting her out of your life forever.
Obviously this is a kind of scorched earth/ take no prisoners strategy and not necessarily the best one

Hi walkinthegreen

Telling friends about this is always a gamble. You’ll occasionally meet an understanding person (usually someone who is the child of a narcissist whose already done some work on their own relationship) but on the whole the rest of society likes us all to keep our misery indoors. Play at happy families no matter what the individual cost. It sounds as though your mother has some serious problems and you’ve taken the consequences. You don’t have to endure this treatment, you can protect yourself from it.

Spend some time on the Out of The Fog website.

I hope you find the help and support you need here. 💐

walkinthegreengarden

I can only reiterate what the others have written. I would merely add that it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and the only people that actually bother with them have had special training themselves in this i.e. the people raised by them.

I would assume that you are on better terms simply because you are still dancing to her tune.

Abusive people like your mother can appear quite plausible to those in the outside world (all this pillar of the community stuff) and they do fool many people hence your friends reactions. They are perhaps projecting their own experience with their parents onto you but what they fail to see and understand is that not all parents are nice and kind. I would not communicate at all further with such types who undermine you so.

Do indeed read Toxic Parents and have a look too at the "out of the Fog" website. I would also recommend you read "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.

Hi @Walkinthegreengarden I don't really have anything useful to add apart from to say what do you think
you want from the relationship with her? What keeps it going? Do you feel in an ok place to tell her how you feel and deal with the consequences? The fact you were relieved when you were no contact says a lot I think. If she wasn't your mother what would you do? It's hard to let go of our parents I think, we will put up with so much of their shit it's unbelievable but there sometimes comes a point where you think 'why are we even doing this?' . I'm at a similar point to you, it's not easy but I wish you well

@Etty17 try not to be hard on yourself for feeling absorbed by all that's going on; it's going to be worth it. Your DC will benefit too, by proxy (if that makes sense?!) xx

Well, since my 'thank you but I'm not looking for advice right now' response yesterday morning, I've not heard from my parents which is unusual as we are usually in touch daily. M did send a group message to family about something she cooked and I didn't comment. No doubt I'm the one in the wrong!

It's my birthday tomorrow. They know my plans (which they were welcome to join) but not heard anything about if they are coming or not. I picked something I hope they wouldn't go to anyway so I'm not fussed. Will just be interesting to see what they do.

@Walkinthegreengarden I can relate to the friends issue. I have two friends I've confided in recently but I'm already seeing that they don't fully understand. I don't know what the answer is I'm afraid. I do know it makes you feel more lonely and isolated

I'm not sure if I should be here or not.

I think I need counseling.

My family has been stressful as long as I can remember. Money issues when I was little. I remember being aware of it and "being good" was my way of trying to ease this. I think my perfectionist tendencies come from this.

Later in childhood a family member was imprisoned. I still don't know what for. The run up to it meant my parents were distracted a lot by helping this person's spouse and other family members. I was a teenager, and was bullied because of it. I said nothing and have never felt like I can talk openly with my parents. They've never been cruel, or mean but they always seem far more involved "doing the right thing" but that meant their own kids sort of got left behind?

Take currently. Lost DGM a year ago. Her house is for sale. They've done all the work getting it smartened up for sale, whilst moaning nobody else did it. Surely that was their choice, as adults to do the work or not and they cannot slag off others for making a different choice? My dad is turning into a really grumpy old man. He is so opinionated and nobody else can be right.

Another, more sinister issue occurred involving a sibling recently has made me really question their judgement. And I'm really bloody angry with them.

I've cut contact back. The situation with this other relatives is hugely complex and potentially outing but involves horrendous crimes.

I'm wondering whether I need a professional to unlock my thoughts?