But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Please can I have some advice/support regarding my mother who I have recently gone extremely low contact with.

We have had a difficult relationship my entire life, my mother has been emotionally abusive as long as I can remember (far far worse behind closed doors than in public so much of it went unnoticed even by my immediate family). I was always the scapegoat, my older DB was the golden child (but has turned out alright). My grandmother was a narcissist and my mother was her golden child.

I had quite extensive counseling 10 years ago, which concluded with the counsellor recommending I consider going no contact with my mother. Problem was that I wasn't prepared to cut ties with my DF (who was a nice person if a bit emotionally stunted, and I think he had his head stuck firmly in the sand rather than being an enabler).

2 years ago my DF died, after a year battling a brain tumor. During his final year I had more contact with my mother than I had had for many years as I was helping nurse my DF at their home for periods of time. The level of bullying and emotional abuse from her ramped up during this time, and I had decided that I was going to go no contact once my DF died. But then just before my DF died I discovered I was pregnant (and suffered with hyperemesis), so simply didn't have the emotional energy to go NC then (if that makes sense). I then felt guilty about my dd having limited extended family, and spent the next 2 years trying to strengthen my relationship with my mother.

Anyway fast forward to this summer and I finally had enough, so I've gone NC (but it's effectively only ever going to be low contact as I am not prepared to loose out on seeing my extended family once a year before Christmas).

So now my mother is hassling my DB for why I'm doing "this", and telling him she isn't sleeping etc. My DB has just become a father 2 months ago, and he's struggling dealing with our mother, and has asked me to write a letter to her explaining why.

So, where I need the advice is, do I write a letter, and if so what do I write? If I don't write a letter what do I say to my DB and how best do I suggest he handles things?

I feel like writing a letter is just bringing stuff to the surface that I don't want to dwell on right now, and I also don't know how to put nearly 40 years of hurt down on paper without it sounding petty, where do I even start putting into words emotions from my childhood? Also, it's taken me 10 years to reach a point where I have accepted that she is never going to change, and I'm scared that writing a letter will be a massive set back for me.

I desperately do not want my relationship with my brother (and baby nephew) to be jeopardised.

hello Cyw😊
It's late at night and I'm not at my sharpest so bear with me if I ramble....
I suppose it seems reasonable to offer some sort of explanation if there has been a significant change in your behaviour towards your mother. However you don't have to give any detail you can just say you're under a lot of stress and you need to protect your mental health by....having a lot of solitude or something like that, just keep giving the same evasive answer?
You don't have to respond directly to the stuff about sleeping just maintain that there's nothing to worry about, start as you mean to go on and keep the boundaries firm 😊
Would that be a way around it without bringing anything to the surface?
How is your relationship with your brother?
It's helpful if you can see eye to eye on the sorts of things I'd imagine!
Sorry to hear you've had such a gruelling time 😔😣

I feel a bit upset that my comment upthread has just been ignored. I realise others here have been having a 'conversation' and perhaps I butted in, but it still feels a bit hurtful.
To add my tuppence worth, I discussed many of the same feelings that others have expressed about not knowing whether or not to go NC with my mother in the aftermath of a very hurtful exchange. I talked to my counsellor today about it and have decided to have some space from the situation and work through how her behaviour has impacted me over my life. I know i can't continue to try to relate to her on the same level any longer, something has to change. I am also not willing to take the sort of behaviour she has been exhibiting every so often towards me. So I have to figure out where the boundaries should be, what I will tolerate, or whether I just don't; want to see her again.
She will never change, so I have to look at protecting myself. Perhaps that might help others in the same situation.

frazzledandconfused you say your mum has empathy to your siblings. Narcs don't have empathy for anyone but will put their energies where it reflects best on them. I am Golden Child and all perceived attention from my mum has been superficial at best. But it didn't look that way to my Scapegoat sister growing up. Have another look at what type of attention your mum is capable of giving, it should hold a clue as to whether she's a narc. Narc or not, she sounds dreadful and you're right to reassess your boundaries. Work your way out of the FOG and read 'will I ever be good enough?' as well as keep up the counselling. Is she capable of change at that age? From your last post it sounds like you're good at making your feelings known (I doubt anyone has intentionally ignored you and I found the best way to join in here was to comment on others' posts ). Narcs hate the 'pull' by those who make demands on them. I watched my sister cry daily as she demanded love but was ridiculed for it basically. I was manipulated into thinking her demands were her own fault rather than that essential human need for validation.

cyw id talk to DB again. Writing letters was the stock in trade for my narc gran and her children. I remember her getting what she thought was a (clearly delightfully) frank one from my aunt. She showed me it and said she wouldn't be responding. Narc gran therefore held the power as the right of response laid with her. My aunt never did get her response and all the pleas she'd taken care to set out in the letter went unanswered. If you must write a letter, and can stand whatever response you get or don't get, ulter's sugfestion is good.

Hi frazzledandconfused

I apologise for ignoring you, sometimes the threads moves faster than normal and like you say things get missed. I read your post. You’re heavily enmeshed in the obligation stage of FOG I think, especially now you have POA.

You can still put up some strong boundaries. Explore your options with the POA. If you feel she’s too toxic for you to deal with speak to your solicitor, there must be individuals with no family who use other methods of devolving legal responsibility.

Have you read any of the books or websites mentioned on the first page? They’re really useful in helping you to see where you are, and that what you’re dealing with is insupportable.

As jam said being the favoured child isn’t the easy ride. The ground still moves beneath your feet, the form of love you get is conditional and variable. No one gets what they need except the narcissist.

I’m so sorry that you were so badly let down by your parents, you deserve so much more. And I’m sorry that you felt ignored here when you are to be welcomed and supported. 💐

cyw I agree with the others about the letter. And if your DB makes seeing him and your nephew conditional on your compliance then maybe you should think carefully about why he would manipulate you.
Explaining yourself in any way is unnecessary - you’ve already told your DM and DB why you’re unhappy, they’re just not listening. Narcissists and their enablers only hear what they want to, and then edit events to suit themselves. It’s miserable, and there’s no value for you in engaging with it because it ends in more damage to you.

My DB has just become a father 2 months ago, and he's struggling dealing with our mother, and has asked me to write a letter to her explaining why.

Your mother is putting him under pressure to do this and so instead of dealing with it himself, he's transferring all that pressure onto you. He's a flying monkey, Cwr, and I'm sorry to say this but in this matter, he's not to be trusted. He just wants to placate her and if that means leaving you vulnerable and exposed, so be it.

It really doesn't matter how carefully you write that letter. It's not meant to be about you. It's all about your mother. She will see it as an attack on her and an unwarranted one at that. She will not accept that she has done anything wrong. In fact, she cannot face up to what she did because that would mean acknowledging that she is not perfect.

All this "I don't know why Cwr is doing this and I'm so knotted up with anxiety that I'm not sleeping" stuff is Stage 1. If you don't respond (and I really really hope you don't, for your own sake), then expect Stage 2 - a dramatic "illness" or "accident" requiring you to rush to her bedside. I think it's called extinction burst and it's what parents like yours and mine do when they realise they are now longer controlling you.

If I don't write a letter what do I say to my DB and how best do I suggest he handles things?

"No, DB, I'm not writing a letter and that's that". No further discussion. Don't justify, explain or defend. Don't forget - anything you say will be carried straight back to your mother.

As to how he handles things from then on, well he's a big boy now so that's for him to work out, not you.

For your own sake, Cwr, please just step back from this.

hi Frazzledandconfused😊
It wasn't intentional! The thread is fast-moving and we have two people with similar starts to the username (both frazzled)
I am consumed with guilt and worry if she dies I will feel I made a mistake. I’m always looking to fix things but realistically they will never change. The truth is my mother does not like me. I don’t like her either truth be told
I now have POA and wish I didn’t. I pushed for it to make things easier but I just want to walk away now
It's such a painful situation to be in, consumed with guilt and worry on the one hand but knowing that you don't like them and they don't like you😣😔
Can you see your way to shifting the power of attorney on to a sibling and then walking away like you want to?

@Frazzledandconfused hiya , sounds like a good strategy. For what it's worth, the therapy should enable you to pick over the bones of the relationship and come to a decision that you are comfortable with. I have just issued a NC message to my mother and I do have conflicting feelings about it but therapy is giving me the strength to challenge those nasty inner dialogues that are ingrained and keep me stuck in the childlike subordinate position. Something I'd really recommend is Pete walkers book on cptsd 'from surviving to thriving'- it is excellent and I think it may benefit you. You can get it as an audiobook 👍. Take care x

@Cyw2018 listen to the others, they speak good sense! It's hard to say no but trying to keep people happy at the expense of your self is a road to nowhere. Doesn't feel good as it goes against our upbringings but it's a basic human right, we aren't here to run around sacrificing ourselves to try and keep unreasonable abusive people happy (not that what we do is good enough anyway-the irony😂) . Best of luck and I hope your brother is understanding of your position in regards to your mother and is ok and respectful of your decision, whatever it ends up being x

she will never change so I have to look at protecting myself
I suppose ultimately for all of us Frazzledandconfused this is what it comes down to, these leopards do not change their spots, if anything they get spottier the older they get, there does seem to be a shift round about the late 70s early 80s for many where the gloves are off and it's just naked self-interest with not even a pretence of empathy for anyone else

I have read everybody's replies, and whilst I am very aware of the risk of my DB acting as a flying monkey, I do feel that he is genuinely at a loss with how to deal with our mother, and this is causing him stress at what should be a happy time in his life.

My DB has not read any books/ forums on toxic parents, so I think he can probably be excused for thinking that a letter is the best way forwards. I have read enough to know that it really isn't that simple. I know he wants me to write an explanation to our mother explaining what she has done wrong, I really don't have the time, emotional energy or written expression to put it into words, and even if I did as Marmaduke so perfectly put it, it wouldn't be good enough anyway!!

So, as a compromise I have drafted this...

Mum

DB has asked me to write you a letter.

This letter it is not intended to solicit a reply or start a conversation.

I have made a decision to cut contact with you after nearly a decade of deliberation. This decision has not been taken lightly and is final.

I am not going to give a justification for my decision, I do not have to, and I do not see any use in it as my decision is final.

I am confident that this is the right decision for myself and my family, and I am happier now than I have been at any time in my life. My attempts to continue a relationship with you have been the only significant negative stressor in my life recently.

In the past when I have tried to discuss with DB, problems I have had with you, he has always shut down the conversation and refused outright to get involved. Whilst this was frustrating and often upsetting to me, he is remaining consistent in this stance now and I respect him for this. So should you. DB can not influence my decision, so I advise you not to damage your relationship with DB by trying to use him as a mediator or attempting to mine him for information. He does not have the answers.

Regards
Cyw

Any thoughts?

I think that’s very thoughtful Cyw, you’re defending your brother, but don’t forget you’re doing the emotional labour here, you’re still trying to repair as best you can a situation that you did not break.

As for the letter I would take out the emotionally descriptive words as much as possible, be practical and direct. I anticipate the response to that letter will be outrage that you are blaming your DB for everything, and trying to influence him.

You know it will be used against you, but I salute you for trying.

Cyw2018 I wrote letters to my mum and sister. Tbh it didnt make any difference to them, it seemed to make them more angry, however it was very theraputic for me. It was a act of finality to say im moving on. As regards your brother, he needs to stand up to your mum, thats his issue that he needs to resolve with her, thats not your burden to carry. Sending you a hug as i get how painful all this is.

You know your own family best, Cyw (sorry for getting your name wrong last time!) and so only you can know whether this feels right.

What I would say is that your last paragraph offers four pieces of information. Any information of any kind might well be construed by your mother as an offer (or challenge) to open up a discussion despite the very clear second paragraph of your letter. And let's face it, parents like your mother and mine do not recognise or accept boundaries anyway, so the second paragraph will be ignored.

It also throws the spotlight back on your brother, which is what you are trying to avoid.

Sorry.

Like Hero, I respect you for trying.

@Cyw2018 I think that what matters most is that you are as ok as you can be with the contents. You could probs cut a few bits out, just because you aren't obliged to explain yourself to her, but if it is what feels right to you then it is the right thing to do 👍. I think it's nice and clear and does the job well. Are you going to show your brother the letter before you send it? I hope his appreciates you doing this for him; and if you do shown it then it'd be a good opportunity to speak to him about your boundaries in terms of your mother; ie that from now on she is off limits in conversation. Hopefully he will be ok and respect your boundaries, and appreciate what you are doing. Are you doing a paper letter or sending a message? X

I wonder if anyone could give me an insight into this, its not a big thing but obviously its something thats bothered me for a while as it makes no sense. So when i was 12 my dad took me to buy new school shoes, I know both my parents were annoyed at the fact i kept growing, it was treated as a personal slight to them. Anyway he took me to a big outlet store, and he went straight to the boys shoe section and made me try on boys shoes. He wouldnt even let me look at the girls shoes, i remember crying because i didnt want to wear boys shoes, not good for a girl who was already being bullied at school. It made no difference he bought me a boys pair and i had to wear them. My question is Why?????? It makes no sense to me at all, the girls shoes were right next to the boys and cost the same. Any ideas?

You had the cheek to grow, Loopyloo, and it cost them money. Your father was making you suffer for it, pure and simple. He was being unspeakably cruel to you and knew you would probably get bullied at school for it.

When I was that age, I wore my brother's hand-me-downs - or more accurately hand-me-ups, as I was a year older than him. And yes, I was bullied at school for it. I've never forgotten the shame and humiliation of those years.

When you are tempted to feel sorry for him, remember things like this. He wasn't just your mother's enabler. He was cruel to you all of his own free will.

💐for the upset it's still causing you.

cyw I'd cut out the first three sentences of paragraph 6 and show DB first.

SingingLily thankyou. Im still in the "there must be a nice explanation as my dad was also a 'victim'" way of thinking clearly. But your spot on, there is no nice reason for that and i need to remember anytime i feel sorry for him. It makes me feel so so sorry for that little girl who just wanted to be liked by her family. I didnt ask for love, just to be liked would have been enough for me.

I was stuck in that way of thinking for a long long time, Loopylou, and it was hard to untangle because my Dad didn't put me through anything like what your father put you through. His cruelty was much more subtle.

When the realisation came, though, that he was abusive in his own right, it hurt. It physically hurt.

Be kind to yourself and protect the little girl who is still there inside you. Remember that you deserve better, you always deserved better, and don't let your father hurt you again.

Thanks for the input people, I will take another look at the final paragraph.

Loopy, did your Dad always shop with you for things? I wonder what the dynamic was between your parents? Did she humiliate him so he did the same to you?
It makes me so angry that someone with no power could be made to feel even worse, even when you were upset he carried on. What terrible parenting.

@Loopylouloves

I didnt ask for love, just to be liked would have been enough for me.

This totally resonates with me, and as an adult I didn't even ask to be liked, I would have settled with just being treated by my mother with the same level of respect and common decency that she affords most other people in her life (I say most, as she was bullying my DF carers so badly that the care agency served their 2 week notice period to cancel my DF care package, and myself and my aunt had to step in and dig my mother out of that mess).