But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I just feel that if something happened when it's like this between us it'd be an awful thing to live with (though I can see no other way). This is what I struggle with. I feel I don't have the strength to live like this every day, feeling so low and stressed & anxious about it, however I feel after this I'd struggle anyway as there's no going back now. They have gone even further down in my estimations of them to do this for over a week (also knowing two grandkids haven't been well with tummy bugs and because of their precious feelings (or should I say HER), they've bor been in touch to ask how they are. Part of me thinks no contact may as well happen now. Plus I need to show them I'm not giving them the power anymore.

I'm going to try to get some counseling as really struggling and feeling low. Today has been particularly bad xxx

I think getting some therapy is a really really good idea, talking it over with a neutral person who is a qualified professional ...I think that does something that you just can't get from chatting with friends.

Both my parents did things which I considered to be utterly beyond the pale and that made it much easier for me to cut off from them emotionally.
I agree that your best option is just to keep on going, if you back down now they will redouble their efforts to conquer and crush you, but being in an anxious and stressed state is not good for you and it makes it much harder for you to see the picture clearly.

You feel it would be hard to cope if something bad happened whilst you're out of contact with them, I suspect that's because you instinctively know that they will try and make you feel guilty and you are anticipating this feeling of guilt?

by staying no contact by refusing to back down you are smoking them out and forcing them to show their hand, all you need to do is keep going, their position is only viable if you stick to the script that they want you to follow, if you refuse their position is undermined, it will all unravel and you will see them for who they really are

I can so relate to many of your comments.
My situation is I have a mother who I think is probably emotionally arrested. She was sent to boarding school at 8 and hardly saw her family from that point onwards. She moved countries when she married and didn’t have the happiest marriage to my Dad.
She is now 82 and struggling. I have moved closer to her recently to try and support her but predictably things have broken down. We have never had a good relationship. I am the scapegoat and my sister the Golden Child.
I can’t remember my mother showing affection to me or giving me a hug. My father was quite emotionally abusive and she never stood up for me or intervened.
Recently she started picking over some things from the past which she holds big grudges over and we had a row. It was the last straw for me. I have spent months trying to sort out her finances and going round to help her with things.
She’s been horrible to my adult daughter, virtually calling her a whore, criticising her clothes and lifestyle. Shows no interest I. Her life just talks about herself all the time.
I am not sure if she’s a narc or not but she shows very little empathy to me, although she does to my siblings.
If something happens with my sister she rushes to help but has never been there for me in any capacity.
I just can’t take it any more. I haven’t spoke to her in five weeks and have blocked her on my phone. However as others say I am consumed with guilt and worry if she dies I will feel I made a mistake. I’m always looking to fix things but realistically they will never change. The truth is my mother does not like me. I don’t like her either truth be told.
I now have POA and wish I didn’t. I pushed for it to make things easier but I jus want to walk away now.

@Frazzledmummy123 I understand the guilt and anxious feelings. I feel like it would be helpful to develop a mantra or something, to repeat to ourselves to reassure ourselves that we are doing the right thing and are not 'bad'. It doesn't sound to me like there is much positive about your relationship with your parents. It's still hard to walk away and I know what you mean, part of me thinks 'well if I just put up with them for a few more years he is bound to die and then it'll be better'. But then I think, 'why the hell do I have to put up with this shit?'. And, if you are like me, there was a lot of emotional abuse when I was a kid and just being around them feels like I'm saying 'yeah, that was fine, do what you want, treat me how you want' and it's just utterly shit. It's like a constant reminder. The arrested development thing is very apt, describes my stepfather to a tee, full of rage and needing excessive praise for literally anything. God I hate that man! I'd definitely recommend therapy of some sort;I am paying for my own psychotherapy and it's been instrumental in keeping things at a bearable level. I do feel the pull to just return to the status quo because there's a feeling I'm inviting something bad to happen to me or the kids as a result of going NC as it's poking the hornets nest 'upsetting' my mother which will enrage my stepfather but enough is enough. It's like a no win situation - you either feel like a coward, grovelling to them and accepting whatever shit they want to throw your way, or you cut them off and feel guilty and wrong. Aargh!

Reading these threads put so much into a different perspective for me. I remember being about 4 or 5 and my dad having to wrestle a kitchen knife out of my mums hand, she would go into rages, screaming, crying etc usually aimed at my older sister and then it would climax with her trying to hurt herself, ( I don’t know if this was a genuine attempt, a cry for help or an attempt to manipulate, she never attempted anything unless we were all with her). I have several memories of this, her lunging for the medicine cabinet, us trying to restrain her. I began to feel like it was my job to talk her down, placate the situation, they used to say I was the peace keeper. If an argument began I would stand infront if the cutlery drawer. The last few times I remember- I must have been around 12/13, she made sure I was watching and put about 10 soluble aspirin in a glass, I knew this was too many and ran to tell my dad. After the last attempt where it was just me and my sisters home she told us she wished she’d never had children, something she later point blank refused happened. She told us she was sexually abused as a child and that’s why she did these things. As I got older I felt more and more resentful and guilty about feeling resentful. These things have never been discussed. My older sister was always the one who couldn’t do right, and was the main target. Although now we’ve left home it’s my father that gets the brunt, and when we question it she has a meltdown, tears, guilt trip etc. I feel so guilty because it’s like Dr Jekyll and mr Hyde, she was wonderful at times, and she’s so lovely with my child but I just don’t know if I want him around that behaviour anymore. Recently on a shopping trip with them she started making cruel remarks to my father and we asked her to stop, this resulted in” I’m always in the wrong, I’m always the bad guy, you always gang up on me”. We went into the shop and I asked my son to walk with me rather than her, i feel she thinks of him as an easy source of sympathy in these situations ( I didn’t say this to her) and she burst into tears and barely spoke to me the rest of the day. For the most part our childhoods were quite happy but I’ve been thinking about these incidents more and more. The problem is I love them very much and I don’t know what to do other than get on with it. The guilt is overwhelming, I feel like I need to see them at least twice a week and they do so much to help us outs

Hi Brainsbaines
First of all you are not responsible for your mother, but you have been brought up to feel that you are. Secondly you cannot go on letting this huge unbearable weight hold you down.

Your mother sounds very ill, did she have any medical or psychological care? It was your fathers responsibility to protect you and keep you safe. You cannot change what has happened, but you can change how you live from now on.

Please consider very strongly what is happening with your children, you can and should protect them from this. You can decide how you deal with your parents, you are free and able to set boundaries for how you expect to be treated.

There is no reason for you to continue with this.

At the beginning of this thread is a list of books and websites which will help you break free of this torment. You are worth so much more than living as a punchbag for an emotionally cruel parent.

Good luck 💐

Brains that sounds chaotic and terrifying 😣
and your mother sounds chaotic and a right pain in the arse, she acts out and plays up like a small child but everyone panders to her because of the the outrageous behaviour from the past lurking as a threat.
I think the likelihood is that as she gets older she will find it harder and harder to get people to be sympathetic, she might escalate and get even worse.
Do you think that having firm boundaries, refusing to tolerate behaviour once it crosses the line would work with her, is there anyone that refuses to put up with her nonsense, is there anyone who calls her out?
My own mother used her volatility to dominate and control people, if challenged she backs down very quickly (she has to since she lacks the brains to construct a rational argument to defend her position) but I never had the courage to do it when I was younger and now if I saw her I'd probably be overcome with the urge to strangle her ...so best not 🙂

Brains, obviously being sexually abused as a child causes psychological damage and trauma, she could seek treatment, she could be helped
You have also been exposed to trauma through her behaviour and it's as if you're now hypervigilant and feel as if you have to keep a close watch on her?

Some wise mumnetters recommended i look at this tread as i was struggling with family issues. My mum and sister have npd and i suffered physical and emotional abuse from them for years before going nc about 5 years ago. The problem for me has been my dad as he has always seen himself as a victim too, he has stayed with my mother and has regular contact with my sister despite knowing what they did to me and the fact that they treat him badly too. I read an article online about enabling fathers and it hit home. I wrote him a letter telling him i wanted no further contact with him but i feel so bad. I know he will get the letter today and im worried about him. When i was younger he suffered badly with depression and used to come into my bedroom at night and tell me he couldnt cope anymore and was going to crash the car. I used to lie awake all night until i heard the car on the drive again. I know that ive been brought up to feel responsible for him and i still do. Although he wasnt a good father, if my mother had been nice i would have issues with him its just he was the lesser of two evils. Please tell me this gets easier.

I'm glad you found this thread, Loopylouloves. It's hard when you realise just how badly your parents - both of your parents - have failed you. From what you describe, you are the family scapegoat and that carries a level of pain all of its own. Yes, it does get better, but it takes time and lots of reflection and support.

This stood out for me:

When i was younger he suffered badly with depression and used to come into my bedroom at night and tell me he couldnt cope anymore and was going to crash the car.

How old were you then?

I learnt this in therapy. "You don't have to set yourself on fire to keep others warm." You need to put yourself first.

The thing with going NC is that you can just take it day by day. You have no idea how my self respect you deserve until you walk away from toxic people and all their drama.

I agree with SingingLily, that really jumped out at me too. That’s not right LoopyLou, you were a child with no way of protecting yourself or stopping him. You’ve done the right thing by placing yourself in a safer place now. It doesn’t help the pain though, you’ve been denied proper parenting.
Do you have any support now? Are you getting any help to move in with your life?
I’m sending you my very warmest wishes. Your life has been very hard, I think. 💐

used to come into my bedroom at night and tell me he couldnt cope anymore and was going to crash the car
It is dreadful to 'confide' that to a child, really toxic and manipulative move, horribly passive aggressive :(
It's as if he just wants to wallow in the misery of the situation and drag you down with him, like no ones allowed to escape, 'no one here gets out alive'
FUCK THAT
leave them to burn if they like it so much
save yourself!!

SingingLily I was about 10, it happened alot. He used to talk about ending it all the time and i would have to try and talk him out of it. I was the scapegoat and my sister was the golden child, still is.

Orangecake123 I'm starting to realise how much I need to practice self-care. I'm actually having my nails done on saturday, which is a big deal for me. I ve spent my life trying to hide who I am even as far as dying my hair, wearing a certain style of clothes because I hated who I was. I'm now stripping all that back and learning to just be me which makes me feel extremely vulnerable. My mum and sister constantly bullied me for the way I looked to the point I had to change everything about myself so they wouldn't.

Herocomplex I have a lovely husband and friends, but people find it hard to hear about an abusive mother. They feel they need to find a reason for it which doesn't help me. I did have counselling once but she said that she found it hard to hear some of the things that were done to me. I think she was maybe new to the job and was a bit overwhelmed by it. Because i have quite a high level of dissociation i can be very matter of fact about what i went through which shocks people. I have started writing about it which is really helpful. Thankyou for your kind words, i feel so alone sometimes.

Ultergo I'm beginning to see that now. He is very emotionally manipulative and passive aggressive. I think it's better I leave them all to each other.

I did have counselling once but she said that she found it hard to hear some of the things that were done to me
please know that there are MUCH better therapists out there, you can get actual help!!
What your father did was dreadful:(

Ohh, Loopylou, just ten years of age. That's fifty kinds of wrong by your father. He took all of his frustration and anger and parcelled it all up and dumped it on your ten year old shoulders. You know why he did that, don't you? He did it to make himself feel better - and with no care for the emotional cost to you, a child.

I'm going to make a guess here. He also confided all his marital woes to you?

You don't have to say if you don't want. But if that rings a bell with you, then I'll say this.

He wasn't just your mother's enabler. He was also your secondary abuser. You owe him nothing, absolutely nothing. His behaviour was despicable. Even now, you are still trying to deal with the damage he caused you.

I'm so sorry, Loopylou, you deserved better, so much better. 💐

SingingLily yes he did. I felt like his marriage counsellor, even things that made me feel uncomfortable, they were completely inappropriate for me. Before I got married he told me that I was the kind of wife he would like, which freaked me out.
I'm beginning to work all this out and my head feels like it's so cluttered with thoughts and memories.

Hi @Loopylouloves I'm sorry you had such a shameful pair of parents. In terms of your father, I'd say he is as bad as the rest of them. He stood by, he allowed it, he contributed to your shitty inadequate upbringing; albeit in different (very messed up and dysfunctional) way. I'm sure he has his demons but he was there to be your parent. Really, I know from personal experience that it's hard to sever ties as the pull to maintain relationships at any cost is strong but as others have said, save yourself. Your family do not appear to have your best interests at heart, it's all about them and their feelings and that isn't right, it's not a true relationship and you deserve so much more. X

LoopyLou sadly there are some therapists whose inexperience lets them down and means their clients are left struggling with counselling as well as their initial trauma.
Saying that your words were hard to hear should have given you the feeling that although what you experienced was and is terrible, the counsellor was walking alongside you, but they failed in that.

The good thing about talking here is that there are lots of us who understand what you’re saying, we understand that parents can do dreadful things to their children, and how it feels to be alone, hurt and confused.

You can say what you like here, no one will try and convince you that you’re obligated to do anything other than take care of yourself now.

It's a shock to the system when you start to see things for what they really are, Loopylou. No wonder your head feels cluttered up. We've all been there.

You are among friends now, people who understand. This thread has been a lifesaver for me and I hope it will be the same for you.

I was the kind of wife he would like
Oh god, he said that your wedding, after all the other weird and inappropriate stuff growing up!?
😣😣😣
Sounds like he positioned himself as a victim and thereby absolved himself of any responsibility as a parent 😕.
my own father's tactic was along the lines of 'well you know what she's like' the implication being that whatever she did was my fault I shouldn't have provoked her.
(Now he knows what I'm like, and I don't take any prisoners)