But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
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August 2013
December 2013
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
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May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I've had a huge falling out with my parents and I don't know how it's going to end and I'm a mess
Hi Frazzled, when I read that sentence I imagined all of us on the thread like the mice in Bagpuss singing 'we will fix it we will fix it'
(Not meaning to trivialize your issues by suggesting they can be magicked away by fantasy characters!)
I want to go straight to this part:
Both of them have now stopped talking to me
you've hit the jackpot, they have voluntarily removed you from their lives, you dont need to tell them where to go, they've already gone....gone and shot themselves in the foot they are trying to frame it as a punishment but it is so clearly a blessing, not even a disguised one.
I told her straight she's been a terrible mother
you rock, you stood up to her, and that was just the start, you've got this and we are here for you :)

SingingLily, thank you for your reply. You made a very good point i've not thought of before, she thought about her own feelings instead of how her granddaughter felt when she was was upset and being ignored. Also, you are totally right about my dad not standing up for me when I was small. He is terrified of her and just refuses to hear a word against her.

You asked if I miss my mum and her moods this past week? No I don't but at the same time I feel messed up at thought of never seeing them again if that makes sense? (There were good times in between and some good points). That's the head-screw, that there were happy times and memories, albeit blighted by he bad stuff. That's not me softening btw, just highlighting that this is what hurts me most.

I feel so torn. She's always accused me of having mood swings when I dared to show any emotion of annoyance at her behaviour, and also is so quick to say I'm a bad daughter because of her own dysfunction. When i think about that I could walk away and keep walking. I just know I'm going to get the 'deserting elderly parents' accusation now.

I'm scared something might happen to one of them, especially my dad who is on the frail side, when we aren't talking.

Frazzled hi! Do you know about FOG? Fear, obligation and guilt. Children of narcissists and their enablers stay in their thrall because of these three emotional responses. Once you can realise that you can choose to be free of these feelings your life can be quite transformed.

There is a website called Out of The Fog which describes tactics for you to use, and really interesting information in why people like your parents behave as they do.

Good luck. Get free. 40 is looking a good age for you. 💐

Ulterego, thanks.
Very true, they have done it themselves I suppose. They think they are punishing me (which I know for a fact as the words 'you need brought down a peg or two' were said). They don't deserve me or their grandkids.

Herocomplex, I've heard of FOG but not the website so I'll definitely take a look, thanks. That pretty much sums my mum up, I can't count the amount of times I've heard the words 'you are stressing me out and I'm a pensioner', at the tantrum about me not driving I got 'so are you just going to leave us then'. I was dreading the years to come when I just know I'd have demands placed on me and put on guilt trips.

you need brought down a peg or two
Imagine if a friend said that to you, you'd tell them where to get off, or laugh in their faces.
Your parents are behaving as if they have authority over you, they DONT, they are people of equal status to you, they are not your superiors no matter how much they speak as if this were the case.
Bring you down a peg or two??
hahaha good luck with that... losers
what a pair of idiots they are!
Laugh, flip them the bird and get on with your life.
They are a couple of toddlers who have toddled off and put themselves on the naughty step, leave them twisting in the wind, let's all place bets on how long they can last:o

I don't drive as can't afford to run a car and not driven in years
dont back down on this one, she knows that if you drive it gives her a big avenue via which to control and manipulate you.

Actually I'm wondering if there is a 'script' thing here, I remember that my Dad seemed to enter a 'start gathering resources for old age' phase there was a lot of hinting that I ought to start driving again (I'm very much like you on that score)

Ulterego you are so right, that statement pretty much alone tells me she is a bully and sees herself as superior to me. The ironic thing is, it actually should be other way around!

Regarding the driving thing, yes it sounds very like a similar situation we have. My parents, especially my mum, makes comments as though she's making plans which involve demands on me for when they are older. My parents live in a semi detached house, no downstairs toilet or stair lift and my dads mobility is bad, the house is in middle of a street with two steep hills on either side which my dad won't/can't walk up and down, nowhere near a public transport stop (15 mins walk all uphill at least), and with a front and back garden which needs attention and getting a gardener is 'too much stress'. When he stops driving unless takes taxis everywhere he'll be housebound. So instead of doing the most logical thing and moving, they plan to put it on me. I have 3 kids including twins, 2 of my 3 kids have additional needs but no, I've to be on call for them and their inability to live sensibly!

My parents, especially my mum, makes comments as though she's making plans which involve demands on me for when they are older

this is how they dominate and enforce their agenda, nothing is explicitly said (because then there would be facts/statements that you can take issue with) it's all in the implications and insinuations.
They speak as if what they want is the case and it sort of goes under the radar, you feel as if you are being manipulated but it's hard to point to any hard evidence.
Their overarching aim is to have you locked down and dancing to their tune, they refuse to move because it positions them as the people at the top of the hierarchy who dont have to make compromises, you by implication/extension are the minion who has to bend to what they want.
I'm not sure what the best way to play it is, you could just tell them straight 'nope, not happening, if you dont move you'll be up shit creek and I will NOT be a paddle'

Or just ignore all the little comments and leave them to it?

Frazzled I’m wondering why your mum doesn’t drive? Why can she harangue you over it?

It’s their choice to live in that place, and it’s their responsibility as adults to plan for their later years if they’re of sound mind. You can support your parents IF YOU CHOOSE, but they can act for themselves, as most reasonable people would.

Ah @Frazzledmummy123 I feel your pain xx I'm similar age to you, have had a bust up recently with my parents (complete storm in a teacup, initiated by them even though I grovelled to them saying 'let's not fall out please, this doesn't need to become a drama etc etc- I so wish I hadn't now but old habits die hard!). This resulted in 8 weeks of silent treatment from them. This was then spun by her into how I had stopped her seeing the kids! But I called her out on it and she has retreated into silent treatment 2.0. So I totally understand everything you're saying, especially the confusion when you think about the good times and things. And deep down who would actually want to find themselves estranging from their parent? It's a tough decision and sometimes the right thing to do isn't always the easiest. I am feeling quite down about it the last day or two but only coz I'm a decent person who cares about other people's feelings. I'm sure the pair of them are just fuming about me daring to refuse to occupy the subordinate position they like to keep me in. You will get a lot of support and good advice on here; you are definitely not alone! 😘

I just reread what I posted and wanted to change it a bit. What I wrote about being a decent person who cares about others feelings wasn't really the right thing to say. Actually what it should've said was 'because I've been conditioned to put their feelings first at all times'. Standing up to them feels unnatural and wrong and I am very anxious about the repercussions. I think we struggle with this to a degree as it's part of the way they bring us up x

Hey Marmaduke I think we all have those days when we wonder if it can’t be fixed and our memories become focused on the positives. It’s hope, and thank god we have it for the most part.

As you say it’s because, despite crappy dysfunctional childhoods we’re decent people who want to love and be loved.

I think if you did try to mend things you’d have a bit of a honeymoon period, before it all just got controlling again. I know I’ve said it before but you seem to have gained strength and clarity since you first started posting here,

Standing up to them feels unnatural and wrong and I am very anxious about the repercussions
That seems like a very insightful and honest statement Marmaduke, and I can certainly relate to it, from what I can gather you will be roughly mid 30s and your parents mid to late 50s or so - no need to clarify my point is more that I am roughly a generation further along
Looking back I think it would have been very hard to stand up to mine 20 years ago because they were still quite robust and it seemed as if they were the 'proper' adults and I was just floundering, now father looks frail and it's clear that he's looking to me to take a kind of carer role.

it's as if he never wanted me to be able to look in Square in the eye, first I was supposed to look up to him and then I was supposed to look after him, but never usurp him, never try to take his crown

Thanks xx I think what I'm mostly struggling with is the feeling that i have hurt my mother. It's like, if she isn't alright then I can't be alright. It'll be fine though, I am 100% sure that I needed to say my bit and that I have had to end the relationship. There's no going back. It would be unreasonable to expect to have no negative feelings wouldn't it? I suppose it's that because at some sort of primal level we have that need for our mothers love and approval. Even if she is a selfish arsehole 😂

@Ulterego I see what you say about him not wanting you to have his 'crown'. I just don't get why they feel like this though? It makes no sense does it on a rational level? Do we not want our kids to go on, have great lives, be successful and happy? It seems that they perceive any of that ia threat to their pathetic egos. it's all about them! So messed up 😡

Ulterego, I can relate to a lot of what you said, especially about the making insinuations instead of coming right out and saying things. I don't have any hard evidence to react to it and she says things to manipulate me but not forthright enough that there can be a reaction.

Your phrase 'you'll be up shit creek and I will NOT be the paddle' is fantastic! This phrase will be used if need be. It says it all (though they are so straight laced I'll probably be called out for swearing and saying the word 'shit'

Herocomplex, that is exactly what I said to my mum when she started on me about getting a car, I asked her why she never drove. She responded with saying she always wished she had. She would never have drove as her life has all been about being ran after by my dad, him driving her everywhere, doing everything she says, etc. I know she took lessons from my dad when they were younger and I remember him saying she wouldn't be told anything which I could easily believe.

You are totally right, it's up to them to take responsibility for preparing for older age. I think it's a deadly combination of the narcissism and God-like complex she has and a generational thing. Don't bother doing anything to help yourself, put it on your kids to run after you.

I just don't get why they feel like this though? It makes no sense does it on a rational level?

No, it doesn't, Marmaduke, but this isn't about being rational.

I recently read an article about empathy on Psychology Today that explained it is a learned behaviour, although the capacity for empathy is inborn. It included this bit:

Being able to take on the perspective of someone elsea cognitive functionis also part of empathy; it’s thought that children begin to see how others see them around the age of four and, in turn, they are able to see others by shifting perspective. The ability to regulate and modulate emotion is also part of empathy. Since science knows that moods can be “contagious,” the ability to self-regulate stops us from going down for the count when we empathise with someone who’s suffering.

I also read in a quite separate article:

People with NPD are emotionally very damaged. The theory is that their emotional maturity is that of a three year old which is why they relate well to young children but not to older children. Older children have their own thoughts, their own likes and dislikes and opinions. Older children are not as gullible. Adult children even less so.

What that says to me is that parents such as ours are stuck at the toddler stage - the "me, me, me" stage. They've never progressed beyond that. They can't empathise and they can't regulate their own emotions. That's why they can't deal with the world as it is, unless it is on their own very limited and very specific terms. That's why they need an enabling partner who will shield them from reality and that's why when horrible reality breaks through, they resort to tantrums and need a scapegoat to blame for everything.

My mother has all the emotional intelligence of a toddler; all smiles when everything is to her liking but moods and tears and tantrums and sulky silences when the invisible line is crossed.

If you look at it like that - arrested development and toddler tantrums - then it all makes sense.

Sorry, don't know where the crossing-out appeared from!

MarmadukeM, I'm sorry to hear you have also been through this recently too . It really sucks doesn't it, and I can completely empathize with all you said. I agree that it feels unnatural and wrong to be not talking to your parents, and yes, we are conditioned to feel that way. Even although my parents have been unreasonable and my mum was as much, if not more, to blame in last week's argument for some bizarre reason I get moments of feeling crap for my part of it and that I've hurt them. However then people like my husband and friends tell me how they are being to me is out of order and childish and then I reaffirm that I'm doing right thing in not making contact since last week. I have 3 kids and could never imagine treating my own flesh and blood like that. This makes me feel like I was right in telling her she's a terrible mother last week.

I am feeling very low too about my situation, it eats you up and i feel in a permanent state of distress and limbo. However we must tell ourselves that there is something wrong with people who treat their offspring like this.

If you ever need to talk, message me anytime xx

Marmaduke I feel like that about my children, the phrase 'you're only as happy as your unhappiest child' rings very true for me, but I never really felt much of an emotional bond with my parents, I think I've always been aware at some level that I was unwanted or unwelcome and from an early age (shotgun wedding, mother very casual about the fact that I was a mistake) I just thought 'well fuck you then.

Why don't they want to lose their crowns? I suppose it's ego but then I have an ego and I feel genuine happiness if my children transcend me, do better than me in life.
It's complicated 🤷‍♀️

a permanent state of distress and limbo is not good and it makes it harder for you to hold onto your position😣
can you describe/pinpoint exactly what you feel distressed about Frazzled? Perhaps we can rationalize you out of it a bit?

Ulterego, I just don't know if I'm strong enough to go no contact as don't feel like I am even though to have any self respect no contact is my only option.

I am worried that something will happen to one of them, especially my dad when things are like this.

I can remember feeling upset at the thought of my dad getting old and frail but then I thought well he's just a normal human being and all human beings get old and frail, there's nothing I can do to stop it.
I know this sounds really bad but I will just be relieved when my parents are gone, I remember that after his mother died my dad seemed to have a new lease of life he was off around the world having all sorts of adventures. She fucked off and left him in peace when he was in his mid 50s now I'm in my mid 50s do I have to put up with this albatross for another 20 years.
I know this sounds really bad 🙈 and probably doesn't help you at all Frazzled.
if something does happen to them what difference will it make if you're in contact with them or not?
in some ways the best thing you could do for them it stand well back and send a very clear message that they need to make proper plans for their own old age that way they might have a chance of being independent for longer rather than clinging to you and dragging you all down?

You say you don't feel strong enough to go no contact, in what way exactly do you lack the required strength?