But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you Hero

Goodness, I don't know where to even begin knowing what I want from them. What do people want from others?

Respect mostly, I feel.

When you’re the child of abusive parents you shrink your ‘self’ into a small place inside you. So careful to fit in, to tiptoe, to be the good child. It gets lost.

Lots of people work with therapists to locate their self-hood. You can start by not suppressing your feelings, just sit quietly and think about how you feel? Guilty because there’s washing to be done. Sad because you feel a bit lost. Name your feelings, try and accept them rather than squashing them down, if that’s what you do.

Lots of people here write stuff down. Maybe you could think about that? Definitely go back and read Out of The Fog again.

She said she knew it was unhealthy and yet she stays and his behaviour continues.

Your DSis knows she is trapped, Clutterfree, and knows she made a bad choice (or perhaps he chose her and she thought oh well, why not, who else would have me?). The damage done to her by your parents in childhood means she doesn't know what a healthy relationship looks like and doesn't understand boundaries because she was never allowed to have any. At the same time, she has been isolated by her mother, her father and perhaps by any other siblings you two may have, so her boyfriend probably seems like all she has left. And his support is patchy and uncertain.

It sounds to me as though she is doing what she is doing just to survive. Just to get through each day, in the hope that something might change for the better.

You can't be her protector and saviour, you know that. She has to work this out for herself. What I would say, though, is that I think you have no choice but to step back but perhaps just keep the door a tiny bit ajar in case she does find the courage to get rid of him. 💐

what do they say when we do respond with are you 'fucking kidding me’
What happens when you step out of your child shoes and have a stand up row with your abusive parent, adult to adult....is it just carnage?
do they have some magic power where they flip you back into being a child and you just can't hack it?

when I look back at my father's behaviour over my adult life it's as if he's a kind of low-level stalker, my behaviour makes it quite clear that I don't really want to interact with him I spend as little time with him as possible I frequently make excuses not to see him, but none of that registers and he relentlessly insists upon his right of access to me if I am a property that he owns.

Hero - hmm, that's something I'm going to have to give considerable over-thinking time to. It would never occur to me to expect them to respect me.

Re therapy. It's been something I've been considering for so long now but I just can't bring myself to start. Maybe I'm scared of falling apart and not being able to put myself back together quickly enough.

SiningLily - I completely agree with you and that is what I try to remind myself of each time I feel let down by her. I'm conscious that I might get to a point where I don't want to be let down anymore though. She also rewrites our childhood but I am getting better at matter-of-factly (is that even a word?!) pointing out how it actually was.

Ulterego - it's a new thing for me the 'wtf' moments and unfortunately, the san pro conversation was definitely not the right audience to correct her infront of. Neither was the time she insisted she never stopped me seeing my father. However, I have challenged her recently on something quite separate but something in which my opinion was totally dismissed. She got defensive but I got my point across well and whilst it was too late to change what she'd done, I don't think she'll make a decision like that without consulting me in future.

The only time I've stood up for myself with my father, he responded very angrily and we haven't spoken since. I had a lot of amazing support and advice from this forum and it gave me the strength to realise my feelings were valid and is what started this whole thing off.

He responded angrily and we haven't spoken since
I hope you enjoyed the look that flashed on his face when he realised that you're not putting up with this bullshit anymore😁

Unfortunately, it was on the phone so I didn't see anything but I got some great points across - rather than the bumbling mess I usually am when put in any form of confrontational situation.

The conversation with him was after a very long phone conversation with my sm and she at least had the good grace to be embarrassed and apologetic about their behaviour. She did then proceed to bring up a lot of long buried stuff from my childhood which I could have done without dredging over and whilst it was a deeply unpleasant time, I'm glad it happened because I have finally seen them both for what they really are and have been able to process it properly rather than just accept that as normal behaviour and all I deserved.

I think I still seek people's approval about the situation and I really need to stop doing it because I start doubting myself when people don't get it and can't understand how I can live without making peace with him.

Falling out with him is almost easier than the situation with my mum and sister because there's nothing left to say to him - he's never going to accept he did anything wrong so we've nowhere to go. Whereas with mum and my sister, we still have a relationship and I'm not quite sure how that should be.

One thing you might like to consider is that not everything your family does needs a response or reaction from you at the time they dictate.

Take a breath, do something else and then think about what you might do, or not do if you decide.

Not rushing in to make everything better, find a way forward or a solution is quite empowering.

I was always the fixer in my family, until I realised it was too heavy a weight to bear.

Hero - I have been coming to that realisation. I am also a fixer but have learnt that not everyone talks to me because they want me to solve their problems so have been working on just listening rather than offering a solution. I'm also a massive over thinker but because most normal things don't come naturally I feel I'm constantly checking what I'm thinking/doing is right.

I know I need some kind of professional help and I will get it one day.

The other thing that bothers me off and on is he sends a card for birthday and Christmas but instead of posting it, he gives it to either one of my dsis. Same for Ds. No other contact whatsoever. Ds has had an incredibly difficult two years and there has been no acknowledgement of that at all.

I am almost at the point of acceptance and then one of my sisters will turn up with a card and I feel it puts me 10 steps back.

I really want them to stop passing the cards on (well, mine at least, I shouldn't really interfere in ds' but then maybe I should!) but wonder if a better approach is to accept the card via my sisters and say nothing.

Thank you so much for letting me offload - it helps so much to get advice from people who get it.

Hello everyone, me again.
So we have had the news today that Grandfather is going to die fairly soon. He has bowel cancer, been admitted to the hospital today as they thought he was obstructed - he is, with tumours and there is nothing they can do.
He wishes to come home and die there.

My question is, should I see him? He hasn't been directly abusive to me but he has been the enabler for my toxic grandmother (who I don't wish to see, but I will have to if I go to see him).
I don't have any bad feeling towards him particularly and I feel like if grandmother wasn't there, I would have gone to say goodbye to him, no question. As she is there though, the very thought fills me with anxiety, especially as I have been avoiding them for the last month or so.

Any advice is welcome.
Thanks, Lola.

I'm sorry, Lola. That's a hard decision.

My Dad died a week ago today. He was M's enabler but like you, I wanted to see him while at the same time, have no contact with M or with two of my siblings. Hospital was the only place I could do that. Visiting hours are quite generous at our local hospital and I managed to visit Dad when there was no one else there. Is that something you could do? Or something you would want to do? I would ring the ward late afternoon and ask if he'd had any visitors that day and they'd say yes, but they've gone, so that was my chance. I never stayed long but it was long enough.

If it's too much though, Lola, you don't have to go. You can remember him in other ways.

I am sorry to hear about your dad's passing @SingingLily

He has said he wants to come home to die, however I don't know how quickly these things can happen(?) if he stays in hospital a while that could be an option and I would be ok to do that, I think.

Thank you, Lola.

Dad died in hospital. I wouldn't have had any time with him at all if it had been at home.

From my limited understanding (perhaps a HCP would know), the hospital would want to set up community nurse support for your grandfather if he went home, plus a referral to the palliative care team especially as he has cancer and would require specialist pain management. That would take a couple of days to set up. You might be able to speak to the charge nurse by phone although information by phone is often strictly limited. Might be worth asking though. Good luck. 💐

Thanks @SingingLily. That's really helpful info. He's definitely staying tonight but everyone is there with him now so I won't be rocking up today. I think they will stay til closing time for visiting.

Grandmother likes to visit all day if she can, she likes to play the doting wife, even though she tells anyone who will listen how much she doesn't love him, but that's a whole different story...

I guess I will wait to see what tomorrow brings.

Firstly, thanks again everyone for your thoughtful feedback. It is so helpful to feel that I'm not crazy and wrong.

Attila, that article was so insightful. Again helpful (that appears to be my word-de jour!). My poor dad was abused by her (I remember acts of violence as well as emotional abuse) so he did use me as a shield. While I'm sorry for him too, it is still not ok that he used me to help himself.

Ulterego - I feel like my mum is low-level stalker too... I wonder if it is the same mental pathology as a stalker, the need to control the victim and the inability to care about whether or not the victim wants them in their lives. The stalker/narc parent's need to be noticed is primary. Not sure if that makes sense.

@TheLolaMontez sorry you're grandad is so poorly, I hope you manage to get some time with him alone. Xx

@Clutterfreeintraining I think the best way to communicate with our relatives is with the least amount of emotion as possible, just really keep things to the point. Once the silent treatment ends that's how I will be dealing with my lovely parents!

And I have another thing to share with you all, that I think is actually quite hilarious. So about 15 years ago my mother decided to become a volunteer at a version of child line but for parents, so they provide support to parents who need help. After a while, maybe a year or so, my stepfather decided to join in too. And, yes, you've guessed it, it all turned to shit and they left. My mother cited the 'politics' of the place but they did tell me my stepfather had a run in with the supervisor as he had decided to go off piste and start giving out his own advice rather than just signposting people to relevant services (as they were meant to be doing) . Picture the scene! Also what really got my goat was that they implied they were able to support people as I had been such a nightmare child!

Thank you @MarmadukeM

wonder if a better approach is to accept the card via my sisters and say nothing
you could accept the card and then burn it, thereby turning his words and intentions into smoke which dissipates never to be seen or heard by anyone

what really got my goat was that they implied they were able to support people as I had been such a nightmare child!
my guess is that this was a primary motivating factor for them, they were drawn to it because it allowed them to imply that you are the abusive one, they showed their true controlling and domineering colours there didnt they!

If the need to position you as the bad one or to scapegoat you underpins everything they it becomes like a relentless tidal wave.
Run for higher ground and stay there, never go back