But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
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December 2013
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Opps, posted (though you could probably do with a breather there)

He's at a loss for how to deal with them. At least he can see the nasty, PA non-apology letter for what it is but how does he reply? He usually likes catching up with them, but then she pull this kind of stunt and now any enthusiasm for seeing them has gone.

When they are busy they fob him off (to prioritise their local, retired friends) but when he's not even home much this year trying to further his career there's no give.

He won't go NC, he's deliberately at LC already. I don't know what to suggest to him (I want to suggest he write a letter telling then to get to fuck, but that's me )

Maybe there's nothing to be done and I just need to let him get on with low-grade bullying if that's what he's happy to allow in return for contact.

Sounds like torture, your poor DH.

I can’t suggest any words to reply with because as you already know in your heart there aren’t any.

His parents are toxic, co-dependent narcissists. There’s no magic formula. There only is putting them in a place where they don’t impact you on a daily basis.

I’m so sorry for your DH and your family. It’s dreadful.

Even though he won't go NC he doesn't seem to enjoy or get anything from seeing them at all. It is duty. And FOG.

Perhaps suggest rather than the harsh sounding NC that he "takes a break" from seeing them for a while and not to go back til he feels "ready"

He may never feel ready

A letter, elfycat? A proper letter by post? Let me guess: that's to underline that this is a grave and serious matter and requires from your poor DH a v-e-r-y careful reply. It's the postal equivalent of putting him on the naughty step. He's being told to mind his manners, and no mistake.

I really do feel for your DH, and for you because it's causing you anguish too. My DSis was the unwanted child, the one who won the Scapegoat Lottery while she was still in the womb, just like your DH. Neither of them ever stood a chance.

Please try to get your DH to look at this website

https://outofthefog.website/

Especially the section entitled What Not To Do.

I realise that he is mired in the FOG and it's like swimming through treacle, but if he accedes to their demand to see your DDs on the required date, this won't earn him any crumbs of approval from them nor will it change their attitude to him now or in the future. All it will do is mess up your longstanding plans with friends for a special event and cause frustration and resentment all round. And for what?

If your DH was feeling stronger, I'd say just don't respond to the letter at all. However, he's not there yet and I quite understand why he feels it too difficult to do right now. So as an alternative, I'd be tempted to send them a brief text along the lines of "Thanks for your letter. That date won't work for us. Perhaps we could meet up after your holiday instead. Have a good time" and leave it at that. You don't need to explain - explanations will just give them more information to use as ammunition against you. No apology required either - this is not a case of considerate parents making a thoughtful request. This is an audience by royal demand. You owe them nothing.

Good luck, elfycat.

Sorry, just reread your post and realised that they will be on holiday until the required date. In which case, just amend to "Perhaps we could meet up at a mutually convenient date some other time".

elfycat,

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and sadly his whole family unit here consisting of you people have ended up being similarly scapegoated.

Low contact as well often leads into no contact, I would further lower all contact levels and not responding to his mother's letter would be a start. Its not a court summons so he does not have to attend. If he cannot do this then you are going to have to step in. None of you owe these people a relationship and it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist in any event. Such people too always but always need a willing enabler to help them and in the event that such a person is not discarded in their codependent relationship, that person can become their secondary enabler/abuser.

Your H really does need to look at the Out of the Fog website; its obligation that still binds him to his toxic parents and hopefully he will be one day able to cut all ties. His recovery from their abuses of him has not even begun yet and will not do so until that happens.

He has been well trained to serve these people with his own needs being put dead last. His inertia as well as FOG hurts him as well as you people, his family, here.

He has also fallen into a trap that many adult children of narcissists fall into and that is taking the children to see his abusive parents. I see without much surprise that your children are ignored by their nan; such people do indeed make for being deplorably bad role models as grandparents. Being with these people is like watching a re run of a tv show you've always hated. He probably thought that they would behave somewhat better when the children came into being but it does not happen like that; toxic parents become toxic as grandparents also. It would not surprise me either if they had a scapegoat/golden child dynamic going on with your children and the damage to them is being done right in front of his very eyes. It really does your children no favours at all to be seeing such manipulation at first hand and you as their mother do not see them. Your children should not be seeing them at all either; they likely see their father cowering and reverting to child like mode in their presence.

Do not reply to his mother's letter; this should now be shredded and not given any more thoughts or power. If a reply is sent it should be a short curt response; for goodness sake do not JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) your actions. Their demand to see your children on this specific day should absolutely be ignored. None of you should go and see them and besides which you have plans already. "No" is a complete sentence besides which what else can they do apart from huff and puff to their so called friends aka the "flying monkeys"?. I would put it to your H that he would not tolerate this from a friend and his parents are no different. A united front certainly needs to be presented regardless now.

SingingLily

(((((((((((((((singinglily))))))))))))))) on reading about your father's death.
. I am glad he acknowledged his own failings.

Be kind to yourself in these forthcoming days. That is something many of us often forget.

Giroux you are most certainly not going crazy. And realising your dad’s role in all of this is the first step in making some kind of peace with it

Giroux

Your anger towards your dad is indeed well justified. Narcissistic women always but always need a willing enabler to help them and in this case that person is your dad. He became her secondary abuser.

This article on enabling fathers may be helpful:-
parenting.exposed/enabling-partner-of-a-narcissist-parent/

elfycat what you’re describing here is pretty dreadful.

My advice, if your DH is sure he wants to maintain contact, is that he needs to start working on owning his space. I don’t think it makes that much difference to a narcissistic parent whether you let them walk all over you, or if you stick up for yourself. But at least with the second option you can hold on to some self-esteem.

I’ve always been a bit confrontational though when faced with irrational behaviour, so may not be best placed to advise 🙈 I would absolutely send them a letter to explain that their demands can not be met. As a PP said, keep it factual, no long explanation or emotion needed.

By the way, it is possible that both his parents are narcissists. It’s not always one narcissistic parent and one enabler. You can be extra unlucky and have two 😬

Re your situation Elfycat
I like the idea of responding to this important letter, this official summons from on high with a brief text message 'nah, cant make it, will let you know'
they will be so pissed off that you have dismissed and trivialised their orders.
Do not explain justify or apologise just say 'nah, dont fancy it'.
I know it's too early for that but when the spell is lifted and you find your anger....:o

Very briefly apologising if she'd had a go at him when he popped into see them on his way to work 4 weeks ago but then ranting that she doesn't see enough of the DDs and it's been 6 and a half months
the brief apology is a little carrot to tempt the poor donkey and make him think she's going to be kind, he hopefully takes a step nearer, he takes the carrot and she wallops him with the stick
aka the classic 'bait and switch' maneuver

Thanks for your replies. I wasn't sure what I was after when I posted originally, and it was probably a reality check - and it is as I thought. Genuinely shit. I'm reading the replies to him (he should get his own acct) and he agrees in a resigned way.

DH has spent a long time coming to terms with his parents behaviour. It was shocking the day his father was swearing at, and belittling him (in front of builders doing a major renovation) and the kitchen fitter apologised but had to leave because it was too upsetting to be around. I was painting and the cutting in is a bit wonky where my hand was shaking and it was all I could do not to go and punch him. DH hadn't even registered what was being said to him and it was vile 'fucking waste of space' was probably the kindest thing his father told him that day . It was only the reactions of me and the kitchen fitter that made him realise something was off - this was his normal, it didn't even register.

Since then he's been increasingly aware. It's been tough (as many of you know) having to face the truth and it's taken him years. He is beginning to stand up for himself, and of course they don't like that. He's at 'but they're my parents' stage and he may never want to go NC.

With the DDs. They have labelled all of their grandchildren I'm sure. The cousins are 'the smart one, 'the arty one' and 'well bless it's lucky she's pretty' one. I'm very sure DH is keeping an eye that they're not being picked on while they're visiting and neither he, nor the DDs know what they've labelled ours as.

The letter is in the bin. I think his current plans involve ignoring the situation in a LC/NC way. I give it a few days and maybe a flying monkey will have try at him.

Thanks all.

'but they are your parents'
I respect the 'office' of Parent, but my actual parents are bastards for whom I have no respect :o

the incident sounds horrific Elfy :(
a certain tone of voice and the fuckers turn us into helpless children, it sounds as if he'd almost dissociated to cope with it:(
I bet you wish you could have punched that fucker's lights out

The letter is in the bin.

Bravo, elfycat's DH! Best place for it. Now firm up plans for the once-a-year event with your friends and look forward to a great time.

(Thank you, Attila. Coping...)

@elfycat glad to hear the letter is in the bin. Let's see what the next move is eh? It is maddening that people can treat you with such utter content and then have the nerve to expect you to ask them 'how high?' when they click their fingers and tell you to jump. The frustration is they will never bloody see it and continue to see every slight against them as a full on assault. Well we know the truth eh? X

Oops contempt not content!

Morning everyone. I randomly woke at 5.30am and have been reading parts of this thread. I posted a few months ago and received some incredibly helpful support.

I've been nc with my dad and sm for over 2 years and as each week/month passes, I'm discovering other ways my father's behaviour is not normal. It's never ending.

What is also becoming increasingly obvious is that my mother and sisters' behaviour is also so disordered.

I'm feel like I'm now questioning everything I say and do because I don't know what's normal and what I've been conditioned to think is normal.

I see my mother regularly and she has shared more and more of my father's misdemeanours with me over the last two years. I don't really want to hear about it because part of me wants to ask why on earth she put up with it for so long and why she inflicted his behaviour on me and my sisters for so long.

Whilst I know she means well, she absolutely failed me in so many ways when I was child. I don't know if this is as a result of her own upbringing or not. She talks fondly of her upbringing but many things she says sound alarm bells in my ears.

This week, we were having a conversation in a wider group of people, about reusable san pro and about teenage girls missing school because they don't have access to sanpro. She was outraged that parents would allow this to happen to their own children and yet I was that teenage girl - she never once bought anything like that for me or even discussed it. Nothing.

She also insists she never stopped me seeing my father when they separated (I was 11) and yet any arrangements to see him were always made by me and if she knew about them would result in her shouting at me and making me feel guilty for wanting to see the 'home wrecker'. I learned quickly to be more discreet but wished I hadn't bothered making any effort with either of them now because neither were arsed about me!!

My relationship with my middle sister has become difficult lately. She's not the best at communicating her feelings. She was as upset as me about the falling out with our dad but says she can't stop contact with him. I respect her choice and don't expect her to. It did make me feel quite unsupported by her but i know I don't need her to validate my feelings toward him. I know he behaved badly. She is in an abusive relationship and I now won't have anything to do with the boyfriend. She has admitted the relationship is toxic but stays in it for reasons I really can't fathom. I can see her getting tied up in knots trying to please everyone and I try very hard not to put her in a position where she has to choose between him and me but there have been several occasions where she chosen him and it really stings. I'm at the point of wanting to detach from her for my own self-preservation but I don't know if I'm being selfish or sensible!! I really want to be there for her but after nearly three years of being the back up plan I'm not sure I want to be that anymore.

I know this is very long and I'm sorry for the ramble. I really should have just got up at 5.30 and started doing the washing

Hi Clutterfree
It sounds like you’re starting to see how your family have their ascribed roles. Do you know what yours has been?

I am completely with you on your mother, my own comes up with reinventions of the past all the time. I’m left open- mouthed at some of them, and angry at others (the san-pro one I completely recognise). I’m not seeing her now. You might want to think if it’s better for you if she’s not able to recreate the past for you for a while?

Your poor sister sounds lost in the FOG, dangerously so.

I’m not hearing much about you in all of this. What do you want?

Clutter

What Hero wrote.

No you should not have got up at 5.30am to do the washing!.

Toxic people often rewrite history to suit their own ends and your mother has done just that. Why did you write though that your mother means well; I see no evidence in your post to suggest that this is actually the case.

You cannot rescue and or save anyone like your sister who does not want to be saved. You can only help your own self ultimately.

What about you in all this?. What are your boundaries like with regards to your mother in particular, they do seem rather too low here.

Thank you for the reply Hero.

It's all I seem to think about. My role has always been baby of the family which simply means my opinions are mostly ignored but I am definitely getting better at either not being bothered or making my opinions heard and listened to but it takes an awful lot of effort.

Yes, open mouthed is exactly what I am when listening to her and mostly because she so genuinely believes what she's saying. I fought very hard to keep quiet during the san-pro conversation because the urge to shout 'are you fucking kidding me?!?!' was so overwhelming.

Re dsis. I am worried my sympathy for her is disappearing. We had a really open conversation about their relationship 2 1/2 years ago after a particularly awful holiday together. She said she knew it was unhealthy and yet she stays and his behaviour continues. I don't say anything negative about him but find it increasingly difficult to listen to stories of weekends away they've had or concerts they're going to but I can be plan b if they fall out and he decides not to go.

What do I want? I think I mostly want to run away. Anywhere but here. Unfortunately, not an option just yet but it will happen and so for now, I just need to find the least stressful way to get through it.

Sorry Attila, I was typing too slowly!!

I think my mother does believe she means well. I mostly feel sorry for her because she has never felt contented with what she has.

You can do something even better than running away. You can have a good think about what you need and expect from them. Decide your boundaries. Be firm and very simple. What behaviour will you accept? Think of it like a new superpower.

I think with your sister you can say that you can’t be her fall back for social events, it makes you feel sad. No need for ultimatums, she knows she should leave, she just can’t yet - not your problem to solve.

Good luck. 💐for you x