But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

And... I killed the thread lol....

No, walkingdead1, you haven't

You are going through such a tough time. You've done everything you can to distance yourself from your toxic mother - grey rock, low contact, no contact - and still she just won't leave you alone. It is a lot to take in.

We are still here for you.

I'm here 😀just been on 'team building afternoon' with work 😖😂 so bit preoccupied x

I have been lurking on your threads but it's time I accept my mother is definitely worthy of me posting here.

Background. Only child, parents divorced when 2, all my life told by mother that father is the worst in the world, had nearly nc with him and he died a few years ago.

Mother seems to have become worse over time. Emotional blackmail, lies, pretending to have cancer for attention, you name it. Then last year I had cancer. She said I deserved it as you only have cancer if you do something to cause it.

After that I decided it was enough and cut all contact about 12 months ago. She won't let go. Calls husband al the time. He stopped answering and she's now on to my in laws via fb. I told them to block her but they feel bad.
Each time she makes an excuse. Sent dd bday present and demanded that she was told it was from nana. I let go but now I don't want to anymore. Xmas is coming and I want her to stay away but I'm scared she will turn up on my doorstep.

Any advice or ideas will be much appreciated. Sorry for the brain dump!

Can I have a little rant please?

It’s my crazy dad’s birthday today. Every year I send him a card. I do this entirely for my mother’s benefit as I suspect she wouldn’t hear the end of it if I didn’t and may even have to deal with some violent outbursts.

I’ve now received an email from my mother, which tells me that he’d been waiting by the letter box all morning, wondering if his beloved daughter would send him a card. Apparently he was simply ecstatic when he received it.

I’m just gobsmacked and feeling incredibly angry and I can’t really put my finger on why. It’s like she’s trying to make me believe that I’m actually really loved by him and that it’s all my fault that we’re not getting on?

May be I’m reading too much into it, but I’m fuming 🤬

End of rant!

@Dulcedelecherocks that sounds really difficult to deal with. I have no advice I’m afraid. I moved to a different country to get away from my crazy parents and they’re still finding ways to get to me!

It sounds like everything with your mother is about her. She just can’t imagine that you don’t want her in your life. Just based on what you’ve set out here, it seems fairly obvious to me why you wouldn’t!

The only thing I can suggest is to stay strong and consistently keep giving her the message that you don’t want any of this. If you only give in once, you’ll be back to square one, but if you persevere it should get better eventually

Crazzzycat that’s exactly what he wants, push it away. Put it in a metaphorical box and throw it down the stairs.
Don’t play the manipulation game.

Event days are ridiculously hard. They remind us of what we lack. Xxx

@walkingdead1 yeah I can see why you are so pissed off, I get it. I'm sorry you don't have people close by to talk things through with, that must be tough. I wish I had useful suggestions for you but I don't, I don't think we are in the same country so don't know what kind of things are available in your area in terms of support but I'm sure you've probably already looked in to things like that. Support groups for people caring long term etc is what I mean. You aren't unfortunately gonna change her (mores the pity) but maybe try some audiobooks, or whatever to get more info to help you detach emotionally as much as you can so she gets to you less. That's something I'm doing at the moment, literally soaking it all up like a sponge. It's not that easy is it to get them out our heads, or none of us would be on here, eh?! Take care xx

I think you’re right HeroComplex

I send my dad a single card a year and my mother may be 3-4 emails and they still find ways to get to me!

It’s emerged from my mother’s email that she’s been stalking one of my stepkids on Facebook. He’s autistic and didn’t really know who she was, so just accepted her friend request. Apparently they’ve been messaging each other 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m livid with her, not him. He’s just innocently answering her questions.

On a more positive note, I’ve booked my first appointment with a counsellor. I was just wondering today if I really needed one and then I got my mums message...that wiped away any doubt I had 😂 Bring it on!

wondering if his beloved daughter
I might be tempted to fire back
'if that's how he treats a beloved I dread to think how he treats the less favoured!!!'
but that would only add fuel to the fire.
I had a 'my precious daughter' from the parent recently, I thought 'that makes you gollum and I'm the ring of power....'

Rant away @Crazzzycat! I bet that was bloody infuriating 😖. They just can't help themselves can they? I can't work out if they actually believe their own shite or it's just an effort to guilt trip. Or maybe a nice combo of the two? Dicks dicks dicks!!

I've long had a theory that a card - birthday, Christmas, etc - is important to people like our parents because it is a visible symbol to the world of their perfect family (which, naturally, can only be a direct result of their perfect parenting). Proof, validation, whatever you want to call it, there for all to see.

An absence of cards, however, tells a very different story and must be warded off at all costs lest people suspect the truth.

I agree SingingLily, much of the effort goes towards maintaining the facade

dulce I think a lot of us can relate to the stress of worrying these 'parents' will turn up on us. They don't care about your feelings whatsoever so they don't care if they upset you. They don't care if they make a scene by showing up when they're not wanted because they are 'in the right'.
I have been no contact on and off with my parents for over 20 years now and the only time it really worked was when I lived in another country -- lol.

I await the day my parents are too old to keep leaving random things on my doorstep or stalking my DC on the way home from school.
I know this doesn't help but I hope you realize you are not to blame and a decent mother wouldn't do things to make you feel bad.

Thanks for letting me rant! I’m feeling much better now.

And @SingingLily I think you’re right. A lot of it is about keeping up a facade. It’s so sad 🤦🏻‍♀️

Gosh, I've loitered for years (may have even posted about 8 years ago under a different name, but can't quite recall). It is my mother. She is clearly a narc or borderline. Whatever she is she is toxic, manipulative, revolting and horrid. She was nice when i was a small child - i think up to about 4 or 5 and then as I became more of a 'person' with needs she has gradually become nastier and nastier. She lures me in , she hoovers (her and my dad are loaded), she makes me think everything is fine, then her anger/rage and spite emerges.

I've been wishing she was dead since I was 16 (i remember exactly when I first realized that I couldn't wait for her to be dead...I've felt guilty about it for years but now I accept that this is probably normal because what I actually want is life free of her.

We've had various periods of NC and are currently in a period of LC. I am so much happier in these periods. Lighter.

I'm currently wrestling with a type of grief over my dad though. I always thought he was wonderful, the golden parent and I tolerated her shit because i like him so much. But what i've realized this through my last visit with them is that he is responsible because he has always enabled her.

To be clear, I live on another continent so we have annual visits where they stay with me. I dread these visits for months in advance and obsess over them. Then they come and it is awful. When my kids were little they liked her but now they are older they think she is awful too. Even being thousands of miles away means i can't get far enough away from her overbearing interference. During periods of high contact she texts me up to 10 times a day (and phones incessantly if i don't answer). I feel consumed by her like she is trying to eat me alive. If i don't answer she says that she is worried and that I am mean not to put her mind at rest. For the last 2 years I've refused to engage with this and she has got more and more vicious as she realizes that she has lost some control. This summer;s visit ended badly and I have lost interest in them both, but FOG keeps me engaged.

How do I move away mentally? How do i deal with my grief over who she is and who my father is? How do i build the self-esteem that she shatttered over a life time? How do i learn to congratulate myself for all the things she derides about my life (I am an academic and this threatens her - she had minimal education and never worked). I am successful and loved by my community, i have wonderful children. Yet she has nothing good to say about me and my many achievements. I am divorced and she said on her last visit, "well the only man who has ever stuck by you is your father" (I'm gay as well by the way, so that comment is double fucked up). In a tirade this summer she was telling me how wonderful she is as a mother and one her reasons why was "I came to support you when you were upset about that revolting woman.." (the love of my life had broken up with me and I was heartbroken, but I should be grateful and tolerate anything right?).

I don't know what I am asking really. I just needed to get it out. Getting it out is an admission and if I admit this, then it is real. I'm not imagining it.

Can I just clarify, the 'wishing she was dead' comment, I obviously don't wish her harm or want to harm her, I just wish she wasn't in my life. If that makes sense.

Hi giroux I hear you when you say you wish she was dead, I think it’s quite understandable as the child of a narcissist. It’s about putting them beyond where they can reach you because when they’re in the world with you all the dread and fear is in the world too.
If it helps I absolve you of guilt on that one.

Realising your Dad is the enabler is a big step. It will help you to get clearer of them eventually. He’s chosen to hold you in front of himself as a protection against her. A good dad would have shielded you from her. You’ve clung to him for safety but it’s been more harmful than good.

You know the answer. Your children are even telling you now. Set yourself free. Use that emotional space they’re occupying to find new love, you deserve it.

💐

Giroux I recognise so much of my own story in yours. I too was emotionally focussed on the narcissistic parent for years and then it suddenly hit me that my enabling parent really wasn’t much better.

It’s so hard to make sense of. The one person who tried to show us love, also betrayed us by not protecting us. It’s a real head fuck. I go between thinking she tried her best but failed for a number of reasons, to thinking that my enabling parent is much worse than the abusive one. I don’t know what the answer is. I’m trying therapy next!

I echo what herocomplex said above, don’t ever feel bad about the negative feelings you have about your mother. I know it’s not considered to be a nice thing to wish people were dead, but I think most people with narcissistic parents recognise those feelings. We will never judge you for saying or thinking any of that

Giroux, I also saw my father as the good parent. After all, he was the one I ran to as a child if I needed a hug. No point in running to M; she doesn't do hugs, not even for a distressed child.

It was only when I tried low contact that I realised his enabling of her was not a passive failure on his part but an active choice. It took the pressure off him. Just over a year ago, he tried to engineer what he called a reconciliation between M and me but explained to me this would mean her indulging in "lots of shouting and harsh words" while I just had to stand there and take it.

Yes, you read that right. My father actually asked me to resume my role as my mother's punching bag, let her scream at me, do her worst, and not react - even though I was already visibly stressed to the eyeballs. I turned on my heel and left. But it was a horrible lightbulb moment. I ended up NC, slowly worked through the grief, and started to feel lighter, more at peace.

Last Saturday, Dad died. We were reconciled at the end. He more or less acknowledged his failings to me as a father and said he didn't deserve my kindness. Still. We were at peace with each other when he died. Not everyone will reach that closure - I know that. I never thought I would.

All I can say is you've been dealt a crappy hand in life but you haven't let it hold you back. You have a fulfilling career, loving children, good friends and people round you. Hold on to that. Your mother must obsess over every detail of your life - so different to hers - and it's a terrible envy gnawing away at her so she uses every opportunity to wound you. She is not a happy or contented person but you have had times in your life when you have been both. Those times will come again.

Attila would ask whether you would put up with such atrocious behaviour from a friend. You would not. So you don't have to put up with family who behave like that either. Could you knock the annual visit on the head? Or, if you don't feel ready to do that just yet, could you find an excuse to swerve it next time?

@giroux I am in a similar situation to yourself too. It's the enabler that is the one that's harder to get your head around. It's definitely a type of grief when you realise that the 'good' one was actually not 'good' enough. I think it takes such a long time to realise it, and typically becoming a parent yourself makes you start to question your childhood and the way you were treated, as you can't comprehend the thought of your children being treated the way you were. We didnt ask for or expect perfect parents but what we did get was sadly lacking. It is very discomforting but I think in the long run, once we get our heads round it we will be happier and more balanced people, because we can lose some of that negative programming and unhealthy coping mechanisms that we've adapted to survive in their toxic company. I feel such a deep hatred it scares me, I think it's clouding my judgement but it's like the chicken and the egg isn't it? No child is born feeling rage and hate are they? You develop feelings from the way you are treated, so you don't need to feel bad about wishing them dead or hating them or whatever. You feel the way you do for a reason. X

same here in many ways, I realise now that they were a double act, she was fiery he was calm but they were both cruel, I think he's worse, more in control of himself so with him it was more deliberate.
I see him clearly now but I don't think he realises.

If it helps to add my voice

I've experienced similar

My father was "the abusive parent" and my mother "the good parent"

But looking back I realise that my mothers mode of parenting was to play us off against each other as rivals for her attention

The 2 against 1 dynamic?

She would use time "without 100" as a reward

And vice versa

I can't overstate how vicious and horrible the eldest has always been to the point where had I been the parent I might have said

"Get counselling, but know, that if this doesn't stop, you aren't welcome in my house" and follow through

Yet she never did, she never did anything substantial in my - which now just feels like an endorsement of my sisters behaviour frankly

Wow, reading these responses through is so helpful and affirming. I feel like I'm not crazy and that my anger with my dad is justified - as well as the grief around 'discovering' the reality of his role.

SingingLily - I'm sorry that you lost your Dad but pleased that you were able to have closure. I'm pretty sure my Dad would never have that insight or do anything to 'betray' my mother.

I have a lot to think about.

Thank you all.

Hi all. I'm writing here for advice about PIL and DH. It's DH who when I read out the thread opening looked at me me and said 'oh' in a small voice.

So... obviously backstory. He was the mistake child, the difficult birth and the one his mother didn't bond with at all (she said she did when he was about 4yo, but I think it was more that she accepted his existence wasn't going away). He's always been the scapegoat child - not the clever one, not the practical one. He was the 'pig' literally his childhood nickname was along these lines who turned out to be a giant of a man while the rest were average sized, and I think they begrudged him the cost of the food he ate. Emotionally neglected for sure; never encouraged, never supported. I've seen this ongoing through our relationship.

I'm NC. They bullied me and lied about it, turning the story round so I was the bad guy - despite unrelated witnesses to a spectacular moment. DH still sees them and takes the DDs. I've said if the DDs ever come back having had any issues I'll call time on that. The DDs aren't that bothered. Their Nan ignores them most of the time.

DH is aware of the level of FOG that he and his siblings live under one emigrated, lucky bastard Their father is controlling of what they do - DH started taking a OU degree with my encouragement and his father went on a rant about how stupid he was and how pointless it would be as he's always going to be an unskilled and shit employee. Actually he's an engineer working at professional level. MIL is as bad, I can't for the life of me work out which is the narcissist and which the the enabler. They have very few friends as a result, though it's always someone else's fault.

DH works away half of the time (think oil-rigs and offshore stuff) and he got home to a letter written by his mother to him. Very briefly apologising if she'd had a go at him when he popped into see them on his way to work 4 weeks ago but then ranting that she doesn't see enough of the DDs and it's been 6 and a half months. Not an apology then.

To be fair it's been a busy year as a family. There was a 2.5 month patch where the only reason DH saw the DDs was because I drove them 500+ miles for a weekend because he was on a course. In 3 months he saw them 8 days. Back in the olden days when I put-up-and-shut-up I would have had them over for dinner when DH was at work if we were going to have a busy time and not see them but that's gone now. Over the summer we went away on holiday as soon as he got back from work until the day he had to go back. He's got another 2-3 days of work related stuff out of his time off this time as well. Just busy.

In the letter they've demanded he take the DDs on a specific date (they're on holiday until then) and we already have plans with friends to go to an event we love, that won't be repeated for a year. We understand their POV, but in return DH feels bullied again by them and that they're not listening to how little time he's been home this year. He feels obligated to go, while at the same time (to quote GoT) he doesn't want to be seen to 'bend the knee'.