But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sorry another long blabby post! Thetes lots I identify with in this thread so thank everyone!

Build, I'm thinking that your parents sound cold and and 'unavailable' to you, you make the effort but it's not reciprocated, as if you are not valued or appreciated?
It's great that you have a good relationship with your sister 😊, and that shows that you are perfectly capable of having a good relationship...you're able to do the work but your parents don't seem to meet you halfway?

Build, you say you make less effort with your parents than you used to, I interpret that as a sign that you are able to have good boundaries, you recognise when people aren't treating you fairly and you respond by withdrawing to protect yourself.

Hi Redken no I don’t think therapy is for everyone, especially as you need a therapist who is experienced in dealing with families who probably can’t be repaired.

Reading the books mentioned in the OP of this thread, perhaps keeping a journal of your reflections on what you read, and posting on here is helpful. You can begin to appreciate what you experienced is valid, and that you are not alone.

I think counselling can be really helpful if you have learnt to minimise your ‘self’ by challenging what you’ve accepted as normal. And I would say it’s life changing to those who’ve suffered trauma or abuse.

I now think twice when I read life advice about putting others before myself, because in the past that has meant I have accepted emotionally abusive behaviour. I think most importantly I now don’t accept other people’s bad behaviour to me on the grounds that they were abused themselves. I can be understanding but I don’t have to suffer the consequences - I choose my own wellbeing now.

What’s interesting about this thread are the commonalities. All the experiences are unique obviously, but many of the behaviours are familiar. This is useful to children of narcissists because once you start to see the patterns you can anticipate the reactions. Instead of just being afraid of their behaviour you begin to be able to observe it in a slightly more detached manner I think.

I’m sorry you find yourself here. It’s a friendly club but not of us really wanted to be members. 💐 for you x

@Herocomplex
Thankyou! Il check the books out. It's a funny brain I have, I sometimes feel detached from things and try my very best not to be like my mum. I know how hard it is as a parent but sometimes feel sorry for her that she didn't get the joy that I have with my kids (well when they sleep I mean 🤣)

Feeling detached from things is a protection your mind has put in place. You’ve perhaps felt distressed but unable to protect yourself so your mind is doing it for you. You can change that but it does take help.

Thanks for the replies and everyone posting on this thread. It sounds daft but this has really knocked me for six. I'm knackered and not concentrating at work. I feel like there's been mix of things that have brought it up. The psychology session, a family funeral (distant relative) and then a family christening. So there's been things which prompted thinking about life and death and childhood. Also spending time with family and seeing normal relationships and the behaviour I've found difficult as a child. So feeling very low today.

@Ulterego I think what you've said about boundaries is true to some extent as I've got older and seen they're not changing. You're description sounds very accurate too. Their unavailability is still the same now as it was lots of the time growing up.

I'm looking at a few websites and identify with lots. But I'm also not sure it's helping as I feel sad for childhood me.

BuildBuildings although it’s incredibly painful it’s absolutely ok to feel sad. Were you told as a child to hide your feelings?

Be sad, be angry, be upset, be cross, shout and scream. You are completely entitled to feel your feelings.

Being sad for your childhood self now is quite expected if you’re revisiting the past.

Is there anyone in real life that you could say that to? ‘I feel sad’
Or be by yourself, and just say it out loud. You can swear if you like!

I feel sad because I didn’t get the love I needed or deserved when I was a child. Sometimes a memory comes suddenly into my mind with such force. But I can say ‘no, that was wrong, I deserved better than that’.

Hope you find something in your day that gives you comfort or solace. Xx

Hi @BuildBuildings sorry to hear you're feeling low. It's understandable though given the circumstances. It's not a nice feeling when you start to realise that the people who brought you into the world have not always had your best interests at heart. You can totally feel sorry for your childhood self, that is fine! You do not need to feel bad about acknowledging you're own feelings. We all have them but it probably feels uncomfortable to you as you have been conditioned to not put your own wants and needs above those of your parents. I know what you are saying about wondering whether all this reflection makes things worse. You kind of slip into ruminations about negative events. I'm in the same boat myself at the mo but I think it's absolutely necessary that we do examine things and try to make sense of them and educate ourselves, so although it may feel crappy now I think it's like lancing a boil. So yeah it's going to be painful but we need to do it to let all that toxic shit out of our lives and find a way forward out of all this. Sending you love 💕

@Ulterego you are right, people do see my parents for what they are truly like, hence why they change friends about every 5years. Funnily enough it's always the friends who have the problem, not my parents 😂. My mother actually said to me a few years ago 'I just don't understand why we can't just have nice friends' . Erm maybe cos you are not nice people! They've already been ruffling feathers at the campsite, reading between the lines. I think my stepfather took offence to a disabled lad touching my mother inappropriately (he is very physically and mentally disabled so I know there's usually no excuse for this type of behaviour but surely to god he could be let off a bit!) so they have recently been busy excluding him and his mother from the friendship group. There are no limits to the bizarre behaviours!

It sounds as if there is trouble brewing at the campsite Marmaduke, they'll be on the lookout for a new campsite soon to conquer and then hold court.
They do sound 'entertaining' will you still get news of the 'exploits' if you cut yourself off... just asking out of nosiness 🤭

Buildbuildings you asked upthread about books and references - you might like The Tao of Fully Feeling by Pete Walker - there is a good section on there about the effects of emotional neglect. If I can just quote a bit from it:

"If our society is in gross, pervasive denial about the destructiveness of verbal and emotional abuse, how much more ignorant are we of the damage caused by verbal and emotional neglect?... For many survivors it is incomprehensible that verbal and emotional neglect caused them grave losses. If certain kinds of fundamental nurturance have never been experienced, it is hard to know they were missing. Many of us are in recovery for years before we begin to understand the profound damage we suffered because of childhood deprivation."

It's not just abuse that causes damage, it's the absence of loving attention.

I agree with Herocomplex and Marmaduke - you are going to have a lot of emotions about this stuff, things are going to come up, and you'll probably feel worse before you feel better. But it is all part of healing. Would you be interested in resources about being present for your emotions? That really helped me, learning to sit with my emotions and (as Pete Walker says) fully feel them. Richard Grannon is quite good on this:

Ha! Marmaduke my DM has never put together her love of ‘plain speaking’ and ‘just saying what she thinks’ with the way people treat her. I’ve see so many occasions when my DF has tried to tell her she’s gone too far but she won’t have it and turns her nasty temper in him. Of course.

Or, as another poster on another thread said, "The small things that are missing from a childhood are the ones that leave the biggest gaping holes".

That's where we all find ourselves now, trying to mend those big gaping holes, even though we didn't cause them. We are having to parent ourselves.

@Ulterego yeah only a matter of time before things implode and they have to move on somewhere else to inflict themselves on some poor unsuspecting folk 😖. Was talking about them at therapy appt today and T said it sounds like my stepfather has the 'opposite of the Midas touch'. A fair summary I'd say. Unfortunately I don't think we will get further updates when I go NC mostly on account of the fact that they don't have contact with most of the family and dont have any friends round where we live (I know, I bet you are surprised to hear this!).

@Herocomplex it's funny how they fail to see what (or should we say 'who') is the common denominator in all these situations. How wonderful it must be to see yourself as the perfect person, 'simply the best, better than all the rest' in the words of Tina turner 😂

@BuildBuildings I just wanted to echo what everyone else is saying here. It’s ok to feel sad. Sometimes that’s just what we have to go through for things to get better.

I’ve known from a fairly young age that my situation probably wasn’t normal, so I’ve had a long time to get my head round it all. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t times I don’t feel sad about it.

I’ve been completely emotionally wiped out this week just because I started reading a book about narcissistic parents last week. My brain just doesn’t seem to want to stop processing all that information, but I know it’s just a phase and it will get better, so I’m just going with the flow for now. Hard as it may be, try not to shut down those feelings 🙂

Hi there.

I have been a member of MN for years but I name change with frequency, an age old problem from my very Stately Homes family has reared its ugly head and I don't want to start my own thread due to these sorts of things often being randomly chosen for media exhibition

Would it be remiss of me to ask for support on how to reply to a text please?

Hi @100PercentThatBitch; I'm sure you will get some good advice on here. I'm new to all this but happy to give you my take on it, for what it's worth. Whats been going on like? X

A longish story truncated

My parents had an awful marriage were my Dad was an alcoholic and basically treated my Mum with contempt and like his servant. He was EA to us all, was very erratic and changeable in mood and you never knew when he would kick off or who he would kick off on and cause an atmosphere. She didn't get the courage to leave until I was a teenager, and basically acted as a single parent (of 3)
I went NC with my father as soon as I could and remain NC

Because of how bad her own situation was some aspects of parenting fell through the cracks.

Both my sisters are older than me and we all suffered differently I guess, but for me my biggest problem growing up was my oldest sister who was older enough than me but developed an immature and extremely bitter resentment to me as the youngest and bullied me relentlessly, like I remember her being unkind to me as my earliest memory of her, any begging or cajoling on my DMs part to stop and change her attitude just made her more resentful and nastier.

Looking back, as an adult it's kind of horrifying because what we are talking about is a GCSE Student screaming abuse in a primary aged child's face, an adult who has left home tearing strips off a 12 yo and criticising every aspect of their personality

In the middle is my other sister and almost like a strategy, older sister created a club of two against one, in which I was unwelcome and never included.

As an adult I ended up spending some time with this sister in the country she now lives and the saddest thing was that a lot of our conversations went like this from her to me :

"I didn't realise you were so funny"

"I didn't realise you knew so much about"

Because she never gave me the chance or more realistically my older sister manipulated her so much it didn't occur to her to

As an adult I find my older sister extremely sinister. I often feel like she's a bad actress who gives a performance and you aren't actually meeting her, you are meeting the role she is playing that day and only know what she wants you to know. Even so, it's easy to tell that she's a liar. Friends become flavour of a month only to vanish never to be heard of again. Usually they are "jealous" Successes are heavily bragged about, failures minimised. She still treats me with utter contempt and so I have quietly gone a quiet type of NC in that I've told nobody that I've done so and simply avoid seeing her unless there's no way out. I've seen her once in about 3 years now

My other sister very rarely comes home from abroad and I can't say I blame her (though I have wondered if she's come home and lied about it before now) but last time she came home I was extremely upset to find that they had basically made all sorts of plans and not included me, nor had it occurred to them to include me. When I asked my sister after spending about an hour or so with her when I would be seeing her next (home for several weeks) she told me I wouldn't be as she was "booked up" I was so devastated I nearly cried in her face. I thought we had come so far in our relationship, but involve the eldest sister (who she stays with) and it all just goes back to the toxic childhood dynamic of "we're sisters and you're that person we were forced to live with"

She is coming again next week and I've just had a text to say she is looking forward to seeing me, but once again it was only mentioned to me fairly recently, and they have made plans together and haven't involved me.

I feel like I don't want to just say "yes looking forward to seeing you too" when what I really want to say is how hurtful it is to always be the afterthought, the dog in the manger waiting for scraps.

Were I to do this I would no doubt be accused by the older of spoiling a rare visit, being a moaner and making things about me

If I ignore the text it's childish.

I just feel like I always have to be the bigger person and suck it up and grin because it just gives cause to older sister to say "well this is 100 this is what she's like" and make me the problem but at the same time I'm sick of having to swallow my feelings and be a doormat

All the responses I've come up with today come off as rude or aggressive and I need to reply to this text soon

Sorry for length

100percent,
I feel so bad for you, you've been treated so horribly and so cruelly, spiteful playground nastiness on steroids, rubbing salt into all those old wounds.
I'm not sure what to advise because it's one of those days and I can't think straight plus I'm an only child and I feel like I just don't understand sibling dynamics.
But I'm here to listen and chip in if I feel I have anything to add, someone with a functioning brain will be along shortly 🤗

Reading through again I feel that these are cruel people and you can't take the risk of telling them how hurt you are, like you can't be real with them you just have to manage them and protect yourself from them, they are snakes, handle them carefully and keep away from the fangs

Hi Ulterego

I've been told before that I am too lenient on blame with the middle sister because we DO have some relationship but the fact is she stands idly by and condones by association IYSWIM.

I do genuinely believe that she personally would feel bad to think I was hurt however she would tell older sister what I had said

There are times when I have visibly seen her get a physical thrill from knowing she has hurt me

A lot of the time on MN people are very critical about how often the word "narcissist" is hyperbolically used but researching the NPD term was such a relief to me. It is very much her.

Your eldest sister is a narcissist (actually sounds quite sociopathic) and your middle sister is her enabler. I’d take a guess that the eldest and your DF are probably very similar.

Obviously I have no way of knowing this but I wonder if you think this might be an explanation?

You’ve been given an extremely crappy set of circumstances, but as long as you engage you’ll continue being hurt.

You ask how to respond? I’d suggest dignified silence.

@Herocomplex

Yes.

It was actually my Mother who said to her "you are just like your Dad"

She hit the fucking roof and wouldn't accept the criticism

As an adult my Mum claims she has mellowed but is intimidated by her and treads eggshells and won't "set her off" by being honest

The most annoying thing she does is try and puppeteer / engineer conversation to make me look bad, but with the arrogance to think that she's so clever about it no one would realise, when it's almost childishly obvious