But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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August 2013
December 2013
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August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I agree with Hero, your older sister sounds as if she is in the malign sociopathic narcissist category, consciously and deliberately enjoys being cruel and manipulating people, I would say that the other sister is under her spell and is used by her as a weapon?
will the older sister get bored and find some other way of getting her kicks if you just don't engage?
I'm sorry you've had it so rough 😔

On a day to day month to month level I don't engage with my older sister at all and don't want to.

My middle sister being in the country may force me into a situation where I have to engage in order to see her

I know because I can sieve the bullshit that she has lost friendships/relationships and had to leave jobs due to her behaviour but she compartmentalises so well that she has my family fooled and I just get so frustrated at being the only person who can SEE her

I just feel like I'll never get justice somehow. Sounds stupid.

My middle sister being in the country may force me into a situation where I have to engage in order to see her

I have very tricky sibling dynamics to navigate too and always have, 100Percent, so you really do have my sympathy. What I would be asking:

a) How much do you really really want to see middle sister?
b) How hard is it to maintain any sort of relationship with her, especially when elder sister is in the vicinity?
c) How anxious do you feel in the run-up to any planned meeting with your middle sister, given your tricky history?
d) How on edge are you during any such meeting because you are second-guessing yourself all the time and trying not to react to any triggers?

Are the answers:

a) Not much but I feel obliged to because that's what sisters are meant to do and I've always been the one to make all of the effort.
b) Hard, really hard, like walking on eggshells all the time. It's exhausting.
c) I dread it, get knotted up about it and have to steel myself to face it.
d) Very, because it's so hard to communicate with my sisters without them taking offence at the slightest thing, or deliberately misunderstanding me, or twisting my words, and then when I do try to explain, they accuse me of over-reacting.

If that all sounds familiar, then there's only one question you really need to ask yourself: has it ever been worth it?

I think you know the answer to that. I also think you deserve more, much more, than that. A healthy relationship is two-way with mutual love and respect, sometimes great and sometimes a little fraught, but fundamentally strong and a benefit to both parties. Not this one-sided test of endurance in which you make all the running, all the effort, all the allowances, and carry all of the emotional brunt. It's not your fault your elder sister and middle sister are like this. They each made a choice to be like this. But you are entitled to make a choice too, you know. You can choose to put your own mental and emotional wellbeing first and stop feeling that you have to try and fix this. Because it really is not your problem; never was, never will be.

I'm with Hero on this. Do nothing; dignified silence.

100percent it’s the cruelest thing, having a family member who you love being placed out of your reach by these circumstances. I am incredibly sympathetic toward you, you’ve had the misery handed on. If your DM saw your eldest sister as another version of your DF she will have seen how he was rejected from the family, and reacted with fury to the love being given to you.

None of this is your fault, but you’re being made to suffer anyway. I wish there were some magic words I could suggest for your text, I really do.

@100PercentThatBitch I'm sorry that you have had to put up with this treatment. The older sister does sound off the scale in terms of personality issues. And that's easier to come to terms with. It's obviously more complicated when it comes to your other sis as yeah, she is a bit 'stuck' if she is staying with older sis. At the same time though, she is making her choice to go along with older sisters wishes so the only thing you can control is how you respond to the circumstances you find yourself in. There's no easy solution but I suppose my advice would be what are you most comfortable with at this moment in time? Is the relationship with middle sis worth pursuing? It sounds like it affects you negatively because of all the feelings it rakes up in you, and although she isn't the destructive and malign one she does seem to be siding with that one in order to preserve herself at the detriment of you and your emotions. Tough situation. What's your gut feeling about what you need/want to do? X

100percent

I would not respond to that text message from your sister either; it is not childish not to respond. You are protecting yourself from being further abused, if you at all continue to engage you will keep on getting hurt and feeling disappointed.

I'm having a bit of a 'meh' day. Had third therapy session yesterday and it made me question how well I actually know myself and my feelings, if that makes sense? I had said 'oh I never get angry' and then realised when talking to her, that actually the truth is that I very rarely (like only every 3 or 4 years or even less) show my annoyance/anger. But what we discussed was how when I have become angry i got full on rage. Once I punched the shower cubicle, once I hit my head off a wall and the worst one was the one time I properly stood up to my stepdad when I was 16 and I blacked out and came to lying on the stairs and he had me pinned down and I had scratched him all down his neck. I literally had no recollection of attacking him but obv I did. It's made me feel very weird. Don't really expect responses to this but I'm a bit uncomfortable with this realisation and I'm thinking, what other issues do I have that I don't 'see' and I'm uncomfortable with it. Did anyone else have similar experiences with therapy? I felt like a liar for saying 'I don't get angry' but I suppose what I meant was 'I very rarely get angry'. She said I was judging myself when I told her I felt like a liar. 😖

Marmaduke the fight with your stepfather episode sounds terrifying, it's as if you are so scared of your own anger (or perhaps scared of the sanctions that might be imposed upon a girl for fighting like a man, for daring to physically challenge a man who sees himself in a position of authority over you) that you'd dissociated during this episode?
I feel as if some sort of ceremony to 'exorcise' your stepfather is called for?
And he does sound demonic, although I suppose not really clever enough to be a demon.

100percent, it's as if the older sister is using the middle sister as 'bait' to try and draw you in so that she can access you and damage you.

God you’ve had a massive breakthrough there Marmaduke. You’ve uncovered the buried anger/feelings that somewhere in the past someone has made it ‘wrong’ for you to feel. It’s fucking painful.
Therapists often refer to what you do together with a client as ‘the work’, and sometimes it can be arduous, grinding and painful.
Just sit with it, notice it, feel it. (And look after yourself)

Also depends what anger means to you, if it’s shouting and violence then why would you want to feel that?
You can be and feel angry without hurting or impacting anyone else. It’s how you process it and deal with it that matters.

If someone tells me they’re angry my first feelings would be dread and distress as I might be the focus of something. But I can now rationalise that and let them feel their anger safe in the knowledge that it’s their feelings and I’m not responsible for managing them. I can say what I feel about it, without taking it on.

To answer some questions (and thank you all for your support)

It occurred to me last night that by ACTING laid back and being all "yes lovely, blah blah"
it might be my best course of action

According to DM, oldest sister may be on the cusp of a drastic change, she is biased and thinks this is a good thing. I think it's the worst idea I've ever heard and I have a strong inkling that my middle sister will come to an even more forthright conclusion with zero help from me

When they clash, they CLASH, and this time it's such a sensitive issue they could implode for good with no help from me - if I keep my cool and stay out of the way.

I do want to see my middle sister but I feel like it may end in tears if I get the opportunity to say how I feel and it's just lose/lose

My therapist main mantra with me was that I needed to be kinder to myself and particularly my past self if that helps Marmaduke ?

100, I think it might be a good idea to stand back and let this clash happen, let it unfold, let your older sister feel the full consequences of her behaviour keep totally out of it so that nothing can be blamed on you

Thank for replies and support the other day. Yesterday felt very meh but I did meet my partner for a quick dinner before meeting friend to go to the theatre. I really just wanted to go to bed. But I'm pleased I went.
@MarmadukeM it does sound like a big realisation. I understand what you mean about realising stuff you've been denying to yourself. I'm obviously very early on with thinking about this. But feel really rocked by thinking about things in a new way. It does open up questions of what else could be different from what I'd thought? But it does sound positive if not also uncomfortable. I'm realising that often they go hand in hand.

Hi, NC'd but not a new user. Often lurk on these threads although I find them very long and detailed so hard to read through. I guess I am about to do the same.

Hoping for some advice or support for my situation and don't want to post in AIBU or mental health....

Issue really affecting me right now is living so close to my abusive family. I won't go into all the details but I have been diagnosed with complex PTSD in the last few years as a result of growing up in their house (alcoholism, beatings, etc) As an adult I was 'forced' to move nearby them (as in around the corner) because my son has special needs and the best school for him was in their neighborhood. As usual I sucked everything up for the sake of someone else (my son) but it has been very hard on my mental health these last 8 years.

Recently I got a new dog because my son wanted one so I am out more but it is causing me to frequently have to see my mother out talking with her neighborhood friends, laughing and giggling away. I had gone NC since a few years ago (another story).

I am getting more and more irked by the fact that she can carry on living like an old innocent lady and I have a suspicion she tells the neighbors (some of which know I am her daughter) that I don't talk to her because I have mental problems.

I am sick of this. My older brother still lives in her house (he raped a girlfriend and beat another one up but the neighbors don't know this), my dad was a violent alcoholic while I was growing up (now he is an invalid of old man with diabetes who neighbors probably feel sorry for), and my mother was the enabler who took out her frustrations on me.

I feel like telling the people my mother runs her dog with everyday IN THE PARK BEHIND MY HOUSE what monsters they really are. Because when I run across these people they get the 'cat's bum face' at me and treat me weird. I think it's because they think there is something wrong with me, that I am neglecting my poor parents, when I am actually the victim in all this.

I can't move until my son is done school, five more years. Also my XH is only paying support based on us staying where we are and him going to this special school. I would move in a heartbeat otherwise.

Any advise! Sorry for the long post. I honestly am getting to the point of suicide over this.

TLDR: No choice about living next to abusers, neighbors don't know and have been probably told my being NC is because I am a depressive lunatic. Abusers go on with happy clappy life. Unfairness of it all getting to me very badly.

I know the feeling regarding the smearing that abusers do. I have tried to develop resilience and to hold my head high.

Anyone who really matters knows the truth and I don’t want to be around judgemental, hurtful people so they are doing me a favour by keeping away!

I think it is a case for you of waiting it out until you can move away. Develop a strong social circle, remind yourself that you are doing the right thing for you and keep your chin up.

You have nothing to be ashamed of and shame on them for judging without knowing the whole situation.

💐

I just feel like I'll never get justice somehow.

Most of us who have grown up in these sorts of dysfunctional families know that feeling and to be honest, I think that it is true.

That’s where developing our own resilience comes in. The very best revenge is a life lived well.

Leave them where they belong - in their fetid, toxic, enmeshed webs. Be graceful, strong and the person who is better than all of that. Walk away with your head held high.

I often think about Jill Saward who was gang raped at home in front of her father and boyfriend. Her identity was revealed but she worked hard to not let that horrible situation victimise her. She became a campaigner on sexual violence and is a great role model in many ways.

And if anyone confronts you or judges you - shame on them for not finding out the truth.

I am getting very badly tempted to tell these people something.

One of the men my mother runs her dog with has two teen daughters. My brother raped one girlfriend (she never went to police, but her brother said he would kill my brother if he came near again) and beat another one. I didn't like him still living at my parents house but I was the 'bad person' for saying about it.

I wonder how this man would feel about knowing my super smiley giggling mother supported her son through all of that and told her daughter to do one?
I am so sick of the fake persona.

I used to live far away and it was great. I hate my life so much now because of this.

We are survivors of all kinds of abuse and we rock🌟

How would you handle living so close to them and seeing them making happy times with all their neighbors while you struggle alone with a disabled son?

The trouble with being the person that tells others that kind of thing is that you can end up being judged yourself and risk being called a liar.

Why stir it all up? You know the truth but trying to ‘put the story right’ without a context - e.g. one of the teen girls starts seeing your brother - does come off as ‘stirring it’ and confrontational.

I know it’s hard, one of my exes told other people that I was abusing him, when the reality was that he was extremely abusive to me! I had no way of telling the truth to the people he told because they wouldn’t talk to me.

Had to walk away and be content with knowing the truth.

The same way that I handle living in the same area as my ex who lives in a house partly funded by me, with furniture and white goods that I bought and with a high paid job, living exactly as he likes; while I house share with a friend and work very hard building up my self employment.

He threw me out in the same week that my Dad died, two months after I had been redundant and in the full knowledge that I had nowhere to go. Then he tried to get me to kill myself. All while playing the little boy lost to others.

I spent a long time devastated and it nearly killed me. But now I am proving him wrong and I am enormously proud of myself. I am determined to live well and prove how strong I am. I know the truth and it has to be enough.

Hi walking

I am so sorry to read how you have been treated to date by your abusive family. You indeed have nothing to be ashamed of; this is all on them.

re this part of your comment:-

"I can't move until my son is done school, five more years. Also my XH is only paying support based on us staying where we are and him going to this special school. I would move in a heartbeat otherwise".

I would seek legal advice on this point; is this actually documented on record?. He should pay support anyway because he is financially responsible for his child. Your son's EHCP should and can move with him. You and in turn your son should not be held like this to ransom by your ex husband.