But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks Hero. I normally call her Sunday evenings been doing so for 15 years so it’s weird being totally NC for that time. I just tried to keep it all very nutural and it’s such a relief to go back to normal. I can’t do the NC thing, it’s too much guilt. I was wondering today if she fell and died how long after someone would call the police due to flies etc and I just deal that additional stress buzzing in my head. When she asked how people are “fine” that’s not easy is it. But if I confide again I will be the person who’s not fine in a few months again.

Sheesh, how lovely would it be to start a thread entitled “ my mum is doing too much for me, I wish she would leave me alone and stop being so invested” 😰

Thanks all. Just hearing others say that all of this was not normal makes a difference.

@MarmadukeM, the way you describe feeling about your mother is exactly how I feel about mine. My dad is an absolute arsehole. There’s no hope for him and I’ve kind of made my peace with that. But my mother is reasonably sane and I just can’t get my head round what she did. She should have done more and I really struggle to forgive her for being so bloody passive.

And she’s definitely got what she deserved @Ulterego. She’s stuck with my dad, which is probably punishment enough!

Well done on making that phone call @welltroddenpath. I remember the pre-phone call anxiety all too well. I’ve no advice on how to manage it as I took the easy way out and no longer talk to my parents 🙈

@Ulterego indeed I will be doing just that, it is the main thing I'm focusing on with my therapist, how to walk away and feel as ok about it as I can. Yeah my stepfather is a nasty piece of work, a real piece of shit. He only hit me once or twice, it was usually just threats and intimidation. He used to do nasty little things like squeezing your hand really hard so it hurt to keep you in line. He liked to say 'desist!' In a stupid 'authority' voice if I did something he didn't like. What a dick! I so want to be free of the fear of him, but I am terrified he will harm my kids if I stand up to him. I don't know if it's a rational fear or not but I'm hoping to be able to let go of that fear. It's probs ties up to our power dynamic when I was little and he was big and so he had the power and I had none. I remember literally wetting myself with fear when I was about 6 or 7 when he whipped the metal dog lead at me and screamed at me for hooking my little brothers nose on a fence by accident. I HATE HIM!!!!!

@Crazzzycat it's a real head fuck isn't it? when you realise that the 'good one' actually didn't care about you enough to stop it. They don't deserve a relationship with us.

Hi, can I drop in here? To be honest it's not my parents that are the issue, but my MIL. Sometimes I post on here or talk to friends about what she has done or said, and they look at me like I'm mad. In isolation, the things she does seem minor but she's been in my life for 15 years now and there is something really not right with her. In the early days of my relationship with DH I thought HE was really unreasonable with her, and having had a very close relationship with my own parents, in particular my father after losing my Mum quite young, I just couldn't understand how they could be so distant and cold with each other. It took years, and I'll never fully know the history as he doesn't talk about it but I do get it. Trouble is, he doesn't want to go NC, he just wants to keep her at arms length which means she comes to me all the time. She emails me, phones me, complaining that it's months since she's spoken to DH and she really wants to know how he is etc. I find it really hard to be blunt, but I want to tell her if she wants to know how her son is then she needs to speak to him. I don't mind keeping her in touch about the grandkids, I email her photos and I let them ring her to tell her about their week, their day at school etc but I don't know how to put the line in the sand and make it clear that I won't be used as a substitute/go-between for her to get to DH.

She's a classic 'but we took you to stately homes' type. Her own past is pretty grim - no father, her mother was very difficult, no long-term relationship (she's never been married). Got pg, had an abortion, got pg again with DH (to another man, who already had a partner and a young son about 2 years older than DH), DH's dad wasn't interested (although he is now in touch and has a reasonable relationship with him). So all she can see is 'you should be grateful I didn't get rid of you'. She tells me she contemplated suicide but she kept going for the sake of the baby. When she talks about DH as a child she refers to him as 'the child', never 'my son' or by his name. It's so weird. She sent him off to boarding school when he was 7. I can see that she is 50-shades of messed up, and to an extent I can understand why but she can't see that it's not DH's fault her life turned out that way. She got herself into that mess. She also massively resents that DH now has a relationship with his father. She hates that.

Sorry, I'm not really sure what I'm asking here. I guess I'm just glad to see I'm not going mad, and I'd like someone to tell me it's not normal, and I'm not imagining it!

@Ulterego it's really interesting what you say about 'hoovering' and gifts. My MIL does this - she is absurdly generous with gifts to the point that we have had to tell her to stop. She went so far as putting money into our bank account! It's all so we have to be 'grateful' - I totally see this now. Despite us asking her not to shower the children with gifts every time she sees them, she does it anyway. Then, when I get cross and point out that she isn't listening to us, I'm the unreasonable one and she flounces off in tears saying that she 'can't do anything right'. I'm left feeling like I've been cruel, ungrateful and unreasonable :(

@ScatteredMama84 that sounds like an incredibly difficult situation for you to manage. You’re being very kind in taking this pressure away from your DH, but please make sure it doesn’t get too much for you. Does he know how difficult you’re finding all this?

I think that, as reasonable, nice people, it’s almost second nature to look for and consider all the possible reasons why an abusive parent acts the way they do. But the truth is that, no matter what happened to them that’s never a good enough reason for acting the way they do. Your DH was emotionally abused too, but did he turn into an arsehole? Or is he trying to break the cycle of abuse?

I’m a firm believer in that we all have choices. Sure things are challenging for those of us that were abused, but we don’t have to perpetuate that abuse. We can be stronger than that.

If your DH doesn’t feel comfortable talking about his DM, do you think he might be willing to read a book about toxic parents? I’m reading “Healing the Adult Children of Narcissists” at the moment, which I’m finding very enlightening. You may find it useful too for getting an insight into your husband’s situation.

@Crazzzycat thank you for the book recommendation, I think I will buy it for DH and he can choose if he wants to read it or not. My DH is a wonderful husband and father, he is the complete opposite of her. He is determined that our boys have the family life he never had, so I agree that having a rubbish past is no excuse for continuing the cycle. It breaks my heart that she gives him no credit for the man he has become. Despite having no example of what normal family life is, he was a wonderful dad from the day our eldest was born. I think she is jealous that he has what she could never achieve, a solid, loving family unit. She makes so many little digs at him, belittling his ability to do basic things like cook, clean, and look after the kids. She never does it to his face though, she does it very subtly to me, almost like she wants me to join in by agreeing with her (which I never do obviously).

Scatteredmama,
yes I think the gifts are an extension of her need to keep everyone constantly beholden to her and in her debt, it's a way of maintaining control
with regard to your husband who refuses to go no contact it seems what he's doing is using you as a kind of shield, you are taking the brunt of her craziness and this allows him to have his cake and eat it, he wants to stay in his mother's good books so he doesn't have to deal with the guilt etc of cutting her out and you're the one that takes the 'hit' of her.

H scattered,

re your comment:-

"I find it really hard to be blunt, but I want to tell her if she wants to know how her son is then she needs to speak to him. I don't mind keeping her in touch about the grandkids, I email her photos and I let them ring her to tell her about their week, their day at school etc but I don't know how to put the line in the sand and make it clear that I won't be used as a substitute/go-between for her to get to DH".

You are being used as such by her in this way though and she knows you find it hard to be blunt as well. People like his mother are really master manipulators.

You do not have to keep on listening to the rubbish your toxic MIL comes out with. You are fortunate in that you seemingly come from a nice and importantly an emotionally healthy family unit, your DH was clearly not so lucky here.

I would also raise your boundaries higher because they are way too low; you do not for instance have to email her photos or get the children to tell her about their week at school. Lessen all forms of contact from you to her over a short period of time. She will never give your H, her son, the credit. These people do not apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Its not your fault or your H's that she is like this and you did not make her that way. You do not owe her a relationship either and if he is belittled like this, chances are you are fair game for all that as well.

Do read the books recommended. It will help you as well as your DH if he reads them. You and he have to present a united front with regards to his mother, anything else will not work.

I would very much be interested in hearing the reasons as to why your H does not want to go no contact with his mother. I would think that his own inertia (which is really hurting him as well as you people) along with FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) is to blame.

You're really being used by the two of them as a buffer between them both. I would resign this position asap because it does you no favours. You certainly need higher boundaries.

they don't deserve a relationship with us
I feel like this is a key thing, looking objectively at the facts of the matter there is no question that we should cut these people out of our lives, at some level they are aware of this.
Whilst we continue to have a relationship with them they can tell themselves that they were good parents, they try to force us to continue the relationship as a way of forcing us to agree that they are good parents.
my father tries to force me to engage with him because he cannot tolerate the idea of himself as a man whose daughter despises him, and I do.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you, I do feel like I need to put in better boundaries but I too then feel guilt, I feel sorry for her (which is crazy, I know). I guess I'm still not trusting myself 100% that she is as bad as I think she is. I think it would be easier to trust myself if DH said 'no more - I'm done with her'. He's not ready to do that, I'm not sure he ever will be. He really has to come to that decision on his own, I can't push him.

I completely understand why you hate your stepfather Marmaduke, with such a build up of rage inside you the urge to 'go nuclear' is strong
ultimately it may be more satisfying to stand back and be strategic, gradually and subtly manage them down to a position where where you can observe them from a safe distance.
If you can get to a point where you no longer fear your step father it might be satisfying to see how things play out, to see The logical progression of their personalities.
I know I'm drifting into revenge territory quite a lot and this probably isn't a good thing 🤦‍♀️ but I want to have a good view of those chickens when they come home to roost.

@Ulterego I think that feeling that you want revenge is a fairly normal part of the process of dealing with all the shit that happened to us. I wouldn’t worry too much about it, unless you start to feel like you’re getting a bit stuck on those thoughts for a long period of time (or feel like you actively want to enact them 🙈)

I read somewhere that having those negative thoughts means that your abusers still hold power over you. There’s probably some truth to that, but achieving the holy grail where you just don’t give a fuck takes a hell of s lot of time and effort. So just see those feelings of wanting revenge for what they are, that is (hopefully) just a phase in a longer process of making sense of it all.

Hi ScatteredMama,

re your comment:-
"@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you, I do feel like I need to put in better boundaries but I too then feel guilt, I feel sorry for her (which is crazy, I know). I guess I'm still not trusting myself 100% that she is as bad as I think she is. I think it would be easier to trust myself if DH said 'no more - I'm done with her'. He's not ready to do that, I'm not sure he ever will be. He really has to come to that decision on his own, I can't push him".

No you cannot push him as you rightly state but I think reading the book previously recommended by crazzzycat would help him as well as your good self. He also really needs to see a therapist and once well versed in dysfunctional family structures. His mother has harmed your H greatly. Its not your fault nor your DHs that his mother is this disordered of thinking; neither of you made her that way.

He may never be ready to cut off his mother entirely but he cannot and should not use you as some sort of buffer between he and she any longer. He has to come to terms with the facts that she is not going to change and seeking approval from her is a wasted effort.

I would think that neither of you would ever have tolerated this from a friend, I would ask him about this too. Would he have tolerated this from a friend?.

@Ulterego I agree; I think my stepfather could literally not care less about me (I would go so far as to say he would have preferred me not to exist) but my presence in his life allows him to show off about his father/grandfather status. He made me call him dad when I was little even though I didn't want to, as he seemed to view us calling him by his first name as us disrespecting him. The fucking tool. I think that he/they will just make up some lies to their caravan pals about why they no longer see me, they'll prob say I've had a breakdown or that my husband has banned me from having a relationship with them. They've never worried too much about the truth getting in the way of a good story they can spin 😂

@Crazzzycat yes I can see what you are saying about the rage being them having some power. It shows we are unable to fully emotionally detach doesn't it? Well full detachment is my ultimate aim, I really do hope I can get to the point where I just don't care about them. X

Hi
I've read bits of these threads on and off and will read more... I'm posting as I have ongoing issues with anxiety and low self esteem. I'm overweight and on the pathway to have bariatric surgery. As part of this I have to have some appointments with a psychologist. She was asking about growing up and trauma in the first appointment. This has got me thinking about growing up a lot and what counts as trauma or toxic behaviour. (sorry if this is a crude turn of phrase!) so last few days I've felt rubbish.

I don't feel my parents were actively abusive but there were quite a number of times I felt sort of neglected and that our interests (mine and sis) weren't a priority. But then at other times I know my mum did things to make our lives nice. So I just feel really conflicted and confused about how to think about growing up. If this makes any sense?

I'm posting in the hope somone might be able to recommend resources such as books or websites that might help me make sense of whether these things were not OK or if it is just normal stuff.

Hi @BuildBuildings, I recognise those feelings of it being really difficult to work out to what extent what I went through was normal. As a child growing up that was the only reality I knew, so things often seemed more normal than they really were!

What’s key here though is that you say you have felt really rubbish the last few days thinking about it, which seems to indicate to me that your childhood wasn’t as happy as it could have been. Your parents may well have been trying to do their best, but as you were left feeling kind of neglected some of the time your parents clearly didn’t succeed all the time.

I personally don’t think it matters much whether they made you feel like that on purpose, or if it was incompetence on their part. I mean, it may be easier to move on if your parents didn’t mean to upset you, but the main thing that matters here is you, how they made you feel and the damage their parenting did to you.

Do you think you’ll get a chance to explore this further with your therapist? I’m afraid I don’t know of any general resources that might help you, but may be someone else will come along who does

I think that he/they will just make up some lies to their caravan pals about why they no longer see me, they'll prob say I've had a breakdown or that my husband has banned me from having a relationship with them
Marmaduke, I think some of their friends may have doubts and will be able to see through them, this man is a horrible bully and things rarely end well for bullies, at best they are gradually deserted as people see through them, at worst those whom they have bullied turn on them as they weaken

@Crazzzycat
Thanks for your reply. I can have up to 4 sessions with the psychiatrist as it is specifically about my readiness for surgery. But obviously mental and emotional health is a huge part of that. I am also on the waiting list for talking therapies counselling. I was offerd group sessions on managing anxiety but they weren't great so only attended 2.
I've had a chat about it this evening (and cry) with my partner. He's rely supportive but I try not to talk about this much as I get upset. He said similar stuff in that I obviously felt it had an impact and I felt neglected at times so it's ok to feel that wasn't good and had a negative impact. He described my anxiety as being a result of trauma. But I feel like a bit of a twat using that word. Because they did take me on holiday and make sure I had clothes etc.

I know in writing this that is almost the title of the bloody thread! And doing some good or basic parenting doesn't mean you didn't do some shit parenting. It's also hard to allow yourself to feel legitimate in thinking things were bad. As there's always someone worse off. So I feel like because I wasn't physically abused and we weren't in poverty I shouldn't moan.

I'm just rambling now sorry!

Hi Build😊 I went on holiday and had clothes too, of course there were times when everything was fine and ok but that doesn't mean the other times were not damaging.
How are things with your parents now?

Crazzzy, I agree carrying this anger certainly does make me feel as if they have still got to me 🙄 I don't even know if revenge is the right word I suppose it's more vindication or validation that I'm looking for, probably the best I can hope for is peace when they shuffle off This mortal coil 👼

@Herocomplex

I read your post about children of narcissistic parents and how they do things. It was like klaxons going off reading about these things I do and don't know why. Sorry if this is inappropriate but is it just therapy that helps? I don't have stacks of memories from childhood most are not happy and not linear really so not sure how much it would help.

I live in the same area as my family after living elsewhere for several years. I'm close to my sister so think that helps maintain a relationship with my mum. I see my mum maybe once a fortnight with my sister sometimes weekly. We have a a family what's app group. We get together with my grandparents and dad maybe monthly at my parents house. So probably looks fairly normal.

My mum doesn't really call or message me. She very rarely would suggest meeting up. When I do see her she doesn't ask about my life and if I mention things she doesn't seem that interested. It's a bit like the opposite of having a really good friend who knows about you and what's going on so you don't have to give back story. I don't really think she knows what I do at work for example. She is quite negative and judgemental and doesn't really do making conversation. So like never would say so how are things with you. But then it was my birthday and she made an effort to ask my sister what I'd like and bought a specific thing. (vintage toy) which I loved. So then I ferl like a dick.

My sister has a dd (who I adore) and pregnant again. My mum looks after dniece so sees my sister more and is a lot more involved in her life.

My dad was never present really in parenting. I think partly this was fathering at the time in late 80s to 90s. But then also it did have an effect on me. He just does his own thing. He almost never calls or messages. When I see him he doesn't really ask about my life.

I make less effort to see them than I used to. But still suggest things to do with them as a family or with my mum and sister. I do ask how they are and engage in their life when I see them.