But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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December 2017 - November 2018
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

What's irking me currently is that i am convinced that narc stepfather will be using this silent period against me to persuade mother its time for them to move away. It's for the best that they do anyway, I don't want them near me so he is doing me a favour really. It's just the thought that he will be yet again manipulating and conniving to get what he wants whilst painting me to be the bad one. It's so hard not to let that fuck me right off😡!

It might help you to see it like the grief process. A psychologist called Elizabeth Kübler-Ross described it as five stages; denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.
The loss of the relationship is akin to a bereavement, so it might be helpful to you. You’ve been through the denial stage, you’re now in the anger.
The stages can be revisited, and we can get stuck in them too.
Maybe have a look at her writing?

Thanks @Herocomplex I will check it out. Anything that might help 😖😂

Going somewhere and having a good swear, and kicking a large cardboard box to pieces also helpful.

I phoned a helpline for adults who was abused as children. That was only about ten minutes but it helped me say it out loud so someone absolutely got it and believed me. I think it helped enormously move from one stage to the next. I spent about 24 hours crying afterwards. It was like yes it was real, it was wrong, she had no right, nothing can change it now.

Painful but it was like my reality slap in the face

I’m so glad for you welltrodden that sounds painful but cathartic.

@Welltroddenpath the crying is a good sign I think, being able to express your feelings is a good thing. Glad it helped, even if it felt crap at the time x

Marmaduke, acting on your feelings is like scratching a mosquito bite. It makes it feel better in the short term but in the long term you need to leave it alone to let it heal.

I've got some more chapters for that book

My chapter would be called "She would say that: managing relationships with extended family when your mother has been making you out to be some sort of genius nutter for the last 30 years"

I’ve been watching this thread for a while and am now certain my dad is a narcissist. The main thing I remember from my childhood was being ridiculed, told I wasn’t good enough, living in fear of his next violent outburst and having to put up with him ignoring me for months on end, because that was his favourite way of trying to control me.

I went NC with him in my early twenties, which was the best thing I’ve ever done. I’ve spent the past 20 years living a reasonably normal life, without his toxic influence. But earlier this year he had a heart attack and I feel like it’s ripped a lot of old wounds open again.

In particular, I got a message from my mother, who I am LC with, that said that “my dad really missed me”. It’s filled me with absolute rage! As a teenager, I wasn’t even good enough to talk to, so what exactly is it he’s missing now? I think my family thought that this health crisis would get me to “see sense” and make up with him before it’s too late. But there’s absolutely no way I’d ever expose myself to his toxic influence ever again.

Anyway, I digress! I thought I’d post on this board to ask if anyone here has had therapy for dealing with their negative experiences? And if so, did you find it useful? I had some therapy in my twenties, which didn’t really get me anywhere. But recently I’ve started reading more about narcissistic parents and it’s bringing up so much shit. I’m not sure if it’s a good idea to try and work through this by myself. If anyone has any experience they’d be willing to share about therapy, either good or bad, I’d love to hear from you.

Good morning all, I haven't contributed here for a few weeks, generally things have been quiet for me, which has been nice.

G.parents are still blocked on my mobile but they have since started calling my house phone (I haven't answered but know it is them, ex directory and they are the only people who ever call the house phone). It rings for what seems like an eternity before they give up, it must be over 5 minutes at a time, so I have now unplugged the thing and I am maintaining my radio silence.

Mother and father came to our house yesterday as it was mine and DH's first wedding anniversary. They were ok, no mention of why I wasn't speaking to GPs (which I was surprised about). I really expected dad to say something as he is the bully of the two and generally likes to assert his control but he said nothing.

After they left, we were all getting ready to go out when father returned, probably 3/4 of an hour later. DH answered the door as I was upstairs with DD.
The conversation went as follows (DH's account, I didn't hear it or know who it was at the door at the time - had the hairdryer on)...

DH: (opens door, father holding a card) I thought you’d already given us your card?
F: it’s from Lola’s Gran
DH: oh right
F: can you ask Lola to ring them because she’s not ringing them
DH: (didn't really acknowledge just looked at the card)
F walked off.

When I went downstairs the card was on the kitchen side, I opened it. Sure enough it was a card from GPs, signed "with lots of love" and a cheque for £100 inside.

I haven't acknowledged the receipt of either to anyone (other than DH as we discussed it, obviously) and my parents have made no direct contact with me to discuss this.

So, my question is, what do I do now? Do I ignore this also? We could really put the money to good use as we are so broke currently but I don't want to give them something else to show they have power over me.

I feel as though I want to explain my side but I am not going to until I am asked about it. I want that to be on my terms, no one else's.

Sorry for the long ramble. Thanks, as always

Hiya @Crazzzycat. I have recently started psychotherapy; I've only had two sessions so far so can't give you too much feedback as it's early days for me. It feels so far as if it's going to be the best money Ive ever spent. To me it's like you need to re program your brain and the therapy can do that by helping look at things a different way. How I'd describe it so far is it makes me look at situations/experiences/people in a different light which then makes sense of things that I couldn't understand before. Like 'rationally I know x,y and z so why do I feel the way I do?' (If that makes sense?!). The therapy is like looking at one of those pictures that shows different things depending on how you look at it. So you know there's one where you look at it and see a beautiful young woman with her head turned away? But then if you look again you can see the side profile of an old hag? That is what I think the psychotherapy is like, so it allows you to see things differently and then understand your emotions better. I'd say go for it if you can, I don't think you have anything to lose. Hope you are feeling ok today xx

Hi Lola

Would indeed maintain radio silence here. As contacting you by phone has not worked they have now roped in your parents as flying monkeys (these people are sometimes but not always easily manipulated relatives) roped in to do their bidding for them hence your dad's behaviour re the card. It shows that your parents cannot be trusted fully either.

This card and cheque should not be at all acknowledged by you nor should the cheque be cashed. It should all be shredded, do not fall for such attempts to draw you back in. This behaviour is known as "hoovering".

The purpose of gifts is to make you feel beholden to them, it also makes them feel they have grounds to expect something in return and so they are more confident in their pursuit of you,
slightly amusing his phrasing 'can you ask her to ring them because she hasn't rung them' the implication being that you are obliged to ring them, ditto the phone they keep on ringing for 5 minutes at a time because the only possible reason for you're not answering is that you haven't heard the phone or you're not at home.
They cannot countenance the idea that you can simply refuse to engage with them, it just doesn't compute, if you don't do what you are 'supposed' to they respond as one might to a malfunctioning piece of equipment, they keep pressing different buttons until something works

Hi Crazzzycatt therapy can be really helpful as it challenges you, makes you explore things that your mind might veer away from if you were working by yourself.
Children of narcissists are so used to reducing their own needs to accommodate others that it’s quite difficult to place themselves more centrally.

A therapist might bring to your attention behaviours that are so ingrained that you’re not even aware of them. You may find it difficult to show vulnerability, or to feel that people are genuine if they compliment you. You may find it hard to ask for what you need because you’re afraid of being rejected.
I find it very difficult to do things that I might fail at, and I’m constantly looking for people’s motivations and judgements. But I’m much more aware of these aspects of myself now so I can check myself and ask whether I’m acting in my own best interests.

It’s very liberating, but it is work. And quite painful work.

I’m happy/sad to say I’ve had 8 years of weekly psychotherapy (obviously excluding holidays etc) to deal with the toxic parents and suicide of H. It is much better than it was, my C-PTSD no longer holds me with an iron fist. Still have some bad days but nothing like it was (and I left home 32 years ago!)
Read through this latest thread. To everyone here: you matter, you can heal, you are enough and you are worthy and deserving of love.
X

Thanks all for sharing your experiences of psychotherapy with me. It helps a lot to know that it can be helpful.

My first experience with therapy was pretty disastrous, as my therapist only wanted to talk about the “here and now”, not anything that led up to that point. Talking about your childhood was apparently outdated 🙃

It was all a bit weird and in retrospect has made me feel like it is not ok for me to talk about what I’d experienced. That was pretty much the message I got from my mother as well, so having that reinforced by a therapist probably did more harm than good!

But I think I’m ready to give therapy another go now. I know it will be hard, but if there’s even a small chance that it will help, I’m happy to give it a go.

@MarmadukeM I think you asked a couple of days ago if anyone here had confronted their enabling parent? I asked my mother and she told me that she simply felt that she had to choose between me and my dad and that she chose him because he was her future.

At the time, that was really painful to hear, but I could kind of live with it. I come from a strict religious background (not U.K.) and that does brings certain challenges with it when it comes to divorce etc. I could see that, to some extent, she was a victim of my dad too.

But the more time passes, the less understanding I become. I could have coped if she’d told me that she had no idea of the impact of his behaviour. But she knew, and she quite calmly and coldheartedly put her own needs first. Even if she felt that it was impossible to leave him, she could have at least tried to reassure me that none of his behaviour was my fault. But that never really happened. Instead she would tell me that the reason my dad and I “didn’t get on” was because we were “too alike”. To this day, that often repeated statement really baffles me.

When I was an adult, she told me that she suspected that my dad was sexually abusing me when I was little. He never did do that, but years later I am still shocked that she was capable of having that thought, pushed it to the back of her mind and continued with her life as if everything was great. She never asked me anything about it at all. It’s just so weird.

Sorry that was so long, but in summary, I don’t think asking the enabling parent made much of a difference to me. But it might have been different if she’d given me a different answer!

You’re right, that’s disastrous for someone like you. I imagine you got given techniques for coping rather than any understanding. It’s not outdated to look at past experiences, it would be the only way to explore trauma for example.
Look at the BACP website. Contact a few therapists and ask some questions.
Be very clear you don’t need CBT.

she told me that she simply felt that she had to choose between me and my dad and that she chose him because he was her future
she frames the situation as one in which she had 2 clear choices, this is bullshit, as you say she could have tried to mitigate the effects on you of the situation.
What she's really saying there is she did what made life easiest for her and disregarded the harm caused to you.
Despicable, I hope she gets her just deserts.
Lately I've been running conversations through my mind, it very quickly escalates in my head to screaming obscenities right in the face, they should keep away for their own safety if my current rage is any barometer.
At calmer moments I just think 'fuck off and die the pair of you'.

@Ulterego I have been doing the same, having conversations with them in my head. And some fantasising about a military training accident resulting in a bomb from a fighter jet landing on their caravan. 😂
@Crazzzycat thanks, you know what? That is very much how I see a conversation going with my mother. I find it helpful you telling me what happened when you spoke to yours. My therapist did say that when my mother went back to narc stepfather after he beat me up there was no requirement for her to tell me that I had provoked him and therefore deserved it. So it's a similar scenario to yours, whereby she knew and didn't bother stopping it because she's a selfish motherfucker. It's weird, starting to see my mother for what she is. In some respects I'm starting to feel like she is the worse one out the pair of them. He is so off the scale behaviour wise I don't think he has control of his emotions; whereas she has been very calculating and self serving, letting her kids be abused so she could keep herself enjoying the lifestyle she has felt entitled to. Mother of the year!

Crazzycat that is awful. She suspected SA and did nothing? Sheesh.

Right I’m about to phone dm as not phoning is building my anxiety about her. Gray rock. I think I’d rather have a filling right now.

@Welltroddenpath hope it gone ok. X

IT was fine thanks. Like nothing had happened and it hasn’t been two months since we talked. I’m glad it’s over with. I’m going to call once a week again but got to formulate a proper set of boundaries before I see her again ( with dh, no point in discussing any issues with her).

That’s good to hear welltrodden that you got it over with. When I was still trying to keep a relationship going I used to ring mine every Sunday, kept it as grey rock as possible. I started to find it more and more upsetting as it was so unnatural, not a parent/offspring call at all. I often felt a bit angry and weepy, especially if there was something about mothers or families on tv that night.
Can I suggest you try and compartmentalise the calls? Just put them straight out of your mind afterwards? I don’t know if you might feel the same, I just wanted to share that.

Marmaduke your stepfather beat you up??
No wonder you are fantasizing about military accidents, words don't work, I want to headbutt him for you, and her.
I hate violence but I feel such rage and I want to fight.
It's like they know somewhere deep down that they are despicable but all they can think of to do is just carry on pretending everything is fine
I hope you cut them out of your life, and walk off whistling into the sunset never ever look back.