But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Oh yes welltrodden In my teens I had (actually still have) a friend who came round in a nice new outfit and my mum praised her to the skies, then turned to me and said she wished I wasn’t so fat.
Devastating.

Sounds very familiar. My weight was always a massive issue and how slim she was at my age etc. I think she was somewhat jealous of me, or threatened by me as I actually made it to uni. Had a good job, she still asks where I get money from, like she can’t be arsed to put a 20 year coperate job and massive redundancy payment together, easier to presume I live off credit card or crimes I guess? How dare I succeed in life.

welltrodden I think that’s one of the pitfalls of trying to please them, the better you do the more conflict it causes them - they know they should be proud but their jealousy and anger is lurking. I only really talked to my DF anyway, my DM didn’t really have a clue, if I said anything she just moved the subject on to her friends/neighbours daughters lifestory.

That’s my mum to a T. If she asked how anyone is, she’s not interested in my answer, just goes back to her pet subject, of her ndn cat or ndn ability to afford fags and alcohol but not hot water or heating. Again she take delight in ndn abject poverty

It's as if these people see their children as captive pets, obliged to just sit there and take all the bad treatment, we should try and forget that they are parents, treat them as we would anyone else who behaved like that.
It's the FOG that stops us
Blow the fog away🌬️💨

And we went along with it, pretending it’s normal, just to maintain the pretence of being mother and daughter.

Be nice and interested enough to get me to confide, then hit me with the vulnerability at a later date.

What mum does that?

Mine, Welltroddenpath, mine. When DH had aggressive cancer and equally aggressive chemo six years ago (he lost four stones and all of his hair). Either I was nursing him at home or visiting him twice a day in hospital. M would ring and ask me how I was and - so grateful was I that she actually seemed for once to be the supportive mother I'd always yearned for - I went against the habit of a lifetime and confided in her; all my deepest fears. When the consultant told DH and myself that there was no point in continuing chemo as it wasn't working any longer, I was in bits. I put on my strong and resolute face for DH but once I got home from the hospital, dissolved in tears.

And M's response when I told her? "Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Lots of people have cancer and get over it. I have arthritis but you never hear me complain."

Six years and one experimental treatment later, DH is fine. Some residual damage from the chemo but nothing he can't cope with.

I have no idea how she is, by the way.

Grey rock, that's the key. Don't give them anything they can turn around and use against you. Because they will.

Wow singing lily that’s so horrible. Glad your dh has recovered. I think I get sucked into the “poor mum she has no socail skills, that came out wrong” etc that I loose the fact she’s just plain nasty. Do you still talk to your mum?

My sister is grey rock, I’m a weak sap.

I think my mum is partly ASD. Because my son has has it, so it’s not impossible. But if she has it’s not just ASD. She clearly has some sort of PD. Plus you can have ASD AND be a a genuine arsehole. It doesn’t really matter what her diagnosis is I guess, but I do wonder.

You’re not a weak sap, welltrodden you’re a normal person, looking for your mother. And you’re here now, so you’re on your way.

A diagnosis wouldn’t help, it’s a largely untreatable disorder, particularly in the elderly. It might help you as you’d have proof, I suppose. But even if she had it, and even if you knew for sure, what difference would it make? Would you feel obliged to help her?

she actually seemed to be the supportive mother I've always yearned for
Imagine a leopard stalking its prey, what you mistake for kindness and empathy is her purring in anticipation, she smells your weakness, your vulnerability and her instinct tells her to play nice while she feels for just the right moment to eviscerate you
She waited until you were at your lowest point and she put the boot in

My sister is a grey rock I'm a weak sap
I'm an only child so can't speak from personal experience, however it seems to me that if you are the only person left who is prepared to be nice to your parent because the other siblings have turned their backs ....well that puts you in a very difficult position, doesn't it?
Whilst it is the case that the others are perfectly justified in going no contact that doesn't alter the fact that you are the only person holding the parent up, if you walk away and they fall down it looks like it's all your fault?

No I wouldn’t feel obliged to help her whatever her diagnosis. It’s just me and dh are used to making adjustments for our sons diagnosis, but of course that’s so that He can grow up with good mental health. Mums to late we’ll balanced exposure to rules of human engagement and learning to stay calm in stressful circumstances.

Another thing, dm once sitting next to mil said to her about my son asd “he doesn’t get it from my side of the family” She basically said “ he gets his asd from your side of the family

I could write a book....

I think they get off on the feeling of power they have when you are at a low ebb. I remember when I was very depressed and anxious that my narc stepfather insisted on me going out to the pub with him and my mother, I didn't want too and he insisted on holding my hand and taking me in, I was about 18 or something. And I let him 🤦‍♀️ #Bizarre

Sorry that did t make total sense, what I meant was I was unwell at the time, with anxiety and depression.

I agree Marmaduke, I think they get a kind of buzz from it, a sense of excitement and arousal

Oh god yes ‘Things My Mother Said That Caused Others To Think WTF’. Or ‘Opinions My Mother Holds Which Make No Sense And She Will Deny Next Time’.

I could write a book....

We could all write a chapter each . It would be a best seller. Hero's already got a couple of catchy titles ready.

The only question is which category would describe it best

Some of it could be lighthearted. I heard my DM telling someone how much she and my DF enjoy cruise holidays as they like to be independent and do their own thing. The look on the persons face as they struggled not to laugh.

I've got some more chapters for that book:-
The emotional burden you carry
Why is it always about you?.
Things just do not add up

Have any of you outright asked your enabler parent why they allowed the narc to treat you the way they did when you were a kid? I think I have a need to ask my mother this question, as if the answer is going to give me closure of some sort. I know she might say something not very nice or whatever. And I'd be fine with that. I would then be able to draw a line under things for once and for all I think. I just have a really burning desire for her to answer that question!

Well there’s a question. If I pushed my DF and he followed the logic I’m afraid he’ll leave my DM. Then I’m left with the fallout.

He did say she was testing his loyalty in our last encounter, but I didn’t pull at that thread.

So I’m leaving it alone. I think he’s always known she’s not right. He’s lived with it for so long. He was a right sod to us as well though at times so my heart isn’t bleeding for him.

MarmadukeM no, unfortunately my dads dead now. I suspect my mum manipulated him too. I knew she lied to him. Still he must have turned a blind to a degree. Mum didn’t hit me in front of him, but he was at home, downstairs for the late night mental abuse. Maybe he thought Mum was having normal conversations with me. I can’t really handle the alternative scenario

I think my my male parent would say something like 'you knew what she was like it was up to you to not to set her off'
I think at the time I'm he just thought it wasn't his problem, or we were both mere women and not important, something of a cypher, I have no idea what's in there really

But I think the trick is to minimise how much it bothers you, they’ve chosen their route, you need your own that doesn’t depend on their (very unreliable) arguments or reasons.
Don’t start more drama, it just leads to more heartache.

Cheers yes I suppose it's ultimately pointless. I can't change them so I need to shift my focus on to how I deal with them. I feel full of rage towards them though and don't know where to put it! It's like I have a squash ball bouncing around in my head which hits off 'I want to do this' 'I'm going to do that' 'I'm going to do nothing', backwards and forwards and it's not stopping 😖. Seeing therapist tomorrow so hopefully she will help me make sense of it. I need resetting like a computer lol.