But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

That’s very complicated grief to navigate Singing. I’m glad you can see where you’re going though. Will your DSis be able to draw a line as well?

I agree that the conventions of society tell us that our mothers love us unconditionally, it seems to me that for the most part mother's reserve 'special treatment' for their offspring but sometimes it's especially bad treatment.
I think my mother was secretly pleased that I was sexually abused as a child, she understood the harm this caused me she wanted me to be ruined and soiled so that I would be forever beneath her and wretched by comparison with her.
I think she saw herself as a femme fatale, someone who had special power over men she couldn't bear to see me getting in on what she saw as her territory, she was so weird and controlling and angry about boyfriend's when I was a teenager, so weird controlling and angry about my appearance.
There is something slightly 'Rose West' about her.
I eagerly await news of her death.

SingingLily

So very sorry to read about your dad.

Your mother and middle sister (her clone and chosen golden child; itself a role mind you not without price either) will continue to make this all about them because that is what they are; all fuss and bother with no real substance.

They will in all likelihood go onto make your dad's funeral all about them as well as well as attempting to beatify your dad saying how close they were, what a wonderful man he was etc (my MIL certainly did, yet more fuss at that time from her as well. She could not abide him when he was alive so it was yet more BS).

You are in my thoughts

Thank you, both.

Yes, Ulterego, I do feel I will have peace and closure. I just hope Dad will be left in peace for however long remains and that when it's all over, he will finally be able to sit in comfort in an eternal armchair and listen to the music in his head. That's all he ever really wanted.

DSis has been more than ready to block the rest of the family for some considerable time now, Hero. She has only been hanging on because of Dad, and she wanted both of us to have a place at his bedside when the time came. In effect, she kept the lowest possible contact she could with M and both siblings so she could keep open the chance for me to see Dad one last time. It's been hard for her, so much harder than it's been for me.

The only thing conflicting me now is that I don't want him to die, but I do want it to be over soon (if you see what I mean). He's too tired and too poorly to cope with the drama and he just wants peace. And I just want DSis to feel able to do what she has long wanted to do and step away from it all.

Thank you, Attilla. You have it exactly right, as always. I have no intention of going to the funeral. It will be a pantomime and I couldn't stomach it. Dad knows I love him. I know he loves me. That's enough for both of us and the rest is just the loud noise of empty vessels.

I have received a small parcel and card from DM. It’s in the cupboard, and I really want to just throw it away. (It’s addressed to Mr &Mrs Husbands Name - I wonder if she thought he would open it if I wouldn’t)
I also have an unopened letter from a few months ago, and an unopened card, probably for my wedding anniversary (a big one).

I really don’t intend to open them, but I can’t seem to get rid of them. They’re sitting there like unexploded bombs.

So complicated these feelings - solidarity with all those struggling today. I just hope my children never see my handwriting and feel the feelings I have.

Ohh Hero. I call them "growlers". They sit in the cupboard where they can't be seen but somehow, they still seem to growl at you.

Shred the cards? It's what I've done before. Put the parcel in a charity bag? Minus the name and address, of course.

Hero

You have my permission to get rid of them if that at all helps, hell if I knew you personally I'd visit your house and take it all off your hands!!. Do not give these things any more power than they have already; get these things out of your home. Throw the parcel in the bin and shred the post from them, you can do this!!!. You will feel lighter for doing so rather than carrying around all this deadweight, hell yeah (she writes channelling Stone Cold Steve Austin here).

I do not think your children will come to dread your handwriting because you have two qualities that she lacks; empathy and insight.

Thank you, I know you’re right, I can do that.

Growlers is a good funny word!

The funny thing is if I asked my DH to do it for me he would in a heartbeat, without a second thought.

Thank you 🙏

Think of it this way; a healthy relationship is two-way, an exchange of love and affection and respect, a give-and-take, sometimes great and sometimes a bit fraught, but fundamentally strong and one from which both parties benefit.
@SingingLily This is so beautifully put. Whenever I worry (which I do daily for far too many hours) that I am not showing my DC enough love or that I am screwing them up or behaving in a way they will hate later in life, I should look at this. Just because we're not perfect doesn't make us like the monstrous parents we had. We do have empathy. We do listen. We care about what matters to them. Care they are healthy and happy and noticed.

And yes, having permission does help.

When all this crap began in May I was prevaricating about a phone call. My DH looked up from what he was doing and said ‘you don’t have to, if you don’t want to, then dont’

I physically felt something lifting from me, like all those viciously hissed ‘do as you’re told’s’ were being taken away.

I have been very firm in some ways, but in others I’m vulnerable.

Thank you, Milliefiori.

I never had the courage to be a parent. I made the decision not to when I was still just a kid because I didn't want any child of mine to have the lonely and miserable childhood I had; it never occurred to me that life really didn't have to be like that, but it was all I knew.

However, I see my DSis trying her hardest to be a good mother to her two, despite the fact that she never had any sort of a role model in our mother. It's a struggle, trying not to second-guess yourself the whole time when you are really just trying to do things right.

You're braver than I ever was. Listening and caring and even just noticing what your children want and responding to that - that in itself means you are winning in the parent stakes. All credit to you.

Wow Singing I’m remembering what you said about looking after your DSis is a suppose you had a really clear lesson on what happens to small children.
Thank you for sharing that though, it just underlines just what repercussions this has, going on and on.

@Herocomplex I was reading something about cognitive dissonance last night and it made a lot of sense to me. It was about Charlie and the chocolate factory and the scene where willie Wonka takes them on that boat thing and they are all excited but then it gets really sinister and they are terrified but ultimately they come out safe into a nice place full of sweets, so they don't know how to feel. They can't decide if is he generous and kind or some kind of psycho, Thames can't make sense if all the weirdness . They said that's what cognitive dissonance is and I felt like it was a great description. Think it helps me understand why I don't understand if you know what I mean. Think this is the struggle we all have. Cos no one is all 'good' or all 'bad' so it's like we have some kind of war going on inside our heads while we think are we doing the right thing? (We are!😂) xx

Should've said "they" not "Thames" - bloody predictive text mistake lol

Yes Marmaduke that’s a good description.

People develop (usually subconsciously) coping strategies to allow for the ‘confusion’, displacing their feelings into other behaviours. I often use denial (‘she didn’t mean to be so horrible, I must have upset her’) and humour (make people laugh so they can’t be horrible to me). Just absorb the behaviour instead of questioning it and pointing out it’s not acceptable.

You can’t do it for too long though, because your mind and your body let you know that things aren’t right. You do pay a price.

Bumping for madcatladyforever in particular

That's really helpful Marmaduke and a great description. It's where I am now. M's really great help if you ask but she rarely offers even when it's obvious that things are very wrong. She's fun to spend time with but will go weeks without returning messages. She likes having us around her when she's not got a partner but when she has, we could fall off the face of the earth and I don't think she'd notice. She once bought me a car for my birthday and then took it back and part exchanged it for one for herself (she said I'd be able to drive it too. I wasn't allowed when she actually bought it). I just can't reconcile the different behaviours in my head.

Sorry, still here. I need to catch up. It’s been almost eight weeks since I talked to my mum. Kids are all slowly going back to school, so it’s a bit stressful with that.

She has fallen badly twice I need to check she’s still alive. I’m just dreading it. Dispite decades of her behaviour I think this is my lowest point towards her. Longest time of zero contact

BeBrave your DM is going through the motions of normal human behaviour, but because she has no empathy she can’t quite complete the task in hand, and she loses interest. It’s all about the grand gesture.
And because she thinks the only person with any feelings of note is her she thinks your pain and confusion are a nuisance.
Does she tell others she’s giving you a car? So they think how kind she is and how lucky you are? But then it’s all a bit confusing and messy, so it’s not mentioned. But she’s still kind and you’re still lucky, and possibly a bit ungrateful because you she’ll say you were disappointed?

Welltrodden you sound quite low, it’s very hard.

Is there anyone else who can check on her? Make sure you know what your boundaries are if you do contact her, be clear about what you will talk about and what you won’t. Don’t be distracted from where you’re going with this.

Are you getting any peace? Or are you thinking s lot?

@Herocomplex yeah I do that, try to make a joke out of things. I can't bear silences, so I find socialising exhausting with people outside my close family and friends as I feel responsible for keeping the evening 'going' and think that people will think there's something wrong with me if I'm not all chatty and funny and stuff. It is ridiculous and makes no sense!
@BeBraveAndBeKind i think they are kind when they want to be kind, but it's all about their wants and needs, not yours. And what they get out of it, not you particularly. So the nice things they do have an ulterior motive half the time I reckon, maybe so they can show off to people about it or maybe so they can have you beholden to them. Their behaviour seems to change depending on which way the winds blowing! There's no working these fuckers out 😖

Marmaduke Putting on a happy face?

You’ve probably taken on the responsibility for other people’s emotions - mum being angry or dad sarcastic and violent would be your fault. So you do the joke, maybe at your own expense.

Again you lose yourself a bit, because that’s not how you feel, just how you’re acting.

Oh god I do that. Feel like I need to keep everything jolly and going when actually bid rather be in my pyjamas reading a book.

I'm cutting contact back slowly. Ringing less, and saying less on the phone.

MarmadukeM - no one else to contact her. My only other sibling is extremely low contact. I might ask her, but after dm kicked off about my son eight weeks ago, sis said she hoed dm fell.

Dm only had one friend. Until she was rude. To get a idea, my mums neighbour is almost 80 and has arthritis. They used to go shopping together then when ndn asked my mum to hold her bag while she stood up, dm said “it’s not my fault your arthritic, you should exercise more, I’m not your slave, fxxk off” they made up until ndn ivy grew over my mums front wall. So as a normal human being, dm said “cut your ivy back or I will ring the council on you” ( both houses are privately owned 🤔) so ndn stood up to her, cue my mum fing and blinding. In short Mum is vile. I feel horrible writing that’s down. But. She is in some ways in psychopath. I feel I’m being unreasonably hard on her. But she gets joy out of pain. My friends have done some dickish things over our friendship. I have never sworn at them, that’s would be running over my cat or sleeping with dh level of rage. Dm is obviously at the level 24/7.

Kids are back at school this week. I need to be ‘yes it went well, yes there all doing great, etc’ because if I say ds with AsD found it hardcore she will store it up to throw back at me. That is her special talent. Be nice and interested enough to get me to confide, then hit me with the vulnerability at a later date.

What mum does that? Imagine your dd saying to you ‘ people was mean today saying I’m too fat’ then the next week you say ‘’your friends are right, your a fat cow, I’m slimmer than you and prettier, you a worthless’ that’s my mother.

She’s still thinks she trendier than me, she’s 70! 😂