But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello, I'm new to this post. Feeling very upset today after an argument with my Mum and starting to feel that we'll never have a good relationship. My teenager has been diagnosed with depression, it's all a bit tough at the moment. He saw my Mum yesterday and was upset because she told him the depression is his/my fault because he has always been spoilt, doesn't like hard work, etc. When I saw her today I told her that he had been upset by her words. Her response was that she had only spoken the truth - that may be true but it doesn't help him when he's struggling - and that from now on she would not speak to him or me, or bother to ask how he was. My husband says I was right to tell her, it's important she doesn't continue to say things like this to my son, he's vulnerable right now. So why do I feel so bad? My intentions were good, I just want to protect my lovely boy who is so sad, and yet I feel guilty that I've upset my Mum. Your thoughts please.

Hi chasing sorry to hear about your awful day, you must be incredibly worried about your son. You need to concentrate on helping him now.

Your mother sounds ridiculous - who would say a thing like that? Has she always been so unkind?

I would have a think now about what you want to happen. Maybe have a read of the books and websites in the first post of this thread. It might be familiar and helpful.

I hope your son is getting help and that you can support him. I’d start by telling him his GM is wrong and he’s not to worry about her having any part of his life for the foreseeable future.

I have been thinking about things recently, and I am unsure whether my mother was emotionally abusive, or whether it's just because she was depressed.

Basically we never knew where we were with her. Sometimes a certain behaviour would be fine, other times we got yelled at. If we did something she didn't like, she would shout at us and then ignore us for days - only to suddenly go back to normal again with no warning, but spoiling us some way as if she felt guilty for how she'd behaved.

She walked out of the home telling us she was leaving, only to return hours later and she'd only actually been shopping.

I have severe anxiety issues now, and I honestly think it was due to the eggshell uncertainty that was my childhood.

Worst thing is, she's still like it now, and I don't even live there. My dad ended up leaving as she was the same with him, and if anything that made her worse.

She never sees herself as a bad parent because we got everything we wanted (pretty much true) and went on lots of caravan holidays which were fun - apart from when she was in one of her bad moods, which made the caravan a VERY bloody small place to be.

It's only recently that I've realised that her behaviour was absolutely not normal. I was such a good little girl , never caused her any major issue, always behaved and did well at school. The things I got shouted at or ignored for were always petty - which was why it was extra difficult, as you literally only had to speak to her the wrong way sometimes. I know that teens can sometimes give attitude without meaning to, but honestly, this was when there was no tone in a voice whatsoever.

I resent her so much for the fact that I now have to live with anxiety. I'm over apologetic to my partner for the slightest little thing, because I keep expecting him to react to things like my mum would have - when he never would. If anything is an issue between us we talk through it calmly.

I don't know how to make it better. I try to keep my distance tbh but doing that just gets me "why don't you visit more" texts, which make me feel guilty.

Thank you for responding @Herocomplex, I should be in bed but this is going over and over in my head. He is getting help from our GP and I've reassured him he has not brought this on himself. I'm not young yet I'm still looking for approval and support from my Mum. I'm starting to realise that I'm never going to get it, but it hurts. My Mum and sister are incredibly close, I'm very independent but on the rare occasions I need help, it's not there. When my husband and I temporarily separated, I told my Mum and her response was that she didn't want to speak to me until I had good news. She even continued to give me an anniversary card. My sister made no contact with me about the situation but posted lots of FB stuff about 'date night with her lovely husband'. I was so lost, alone and sad. When I type it out like this it's all a bit of a mess isn't it? My Mum will be waiting for me to apologise to her but I think I just need to prioritise my boy for now, don't I?

Chasing I think your mother is purely and simply punishing you for challenging her authority, for not agreeing with her diagnosis/opinion, you are completely right to stand up to her and to defend your son, my next move will be to welcome not having to interact with her in the future... I would just walk away and not contact her, after all with friends like that who needs enemies!
if she's prepared to drop you just because you don't agree with her why would you want her in your life anyway?

Chasing, your mother just sounds like a nasty evil piece of work, its as if she can't bear to help you, she just has to poor poison on everything
Appalling thing to say to her grandson, an appalling way to behave towards you when you're in distress after a major traumatic life event.
Does she have any friends apart from her (no doubt just as evil?) sister

@Ulterego the logical part of my brain tells me I should not engage with my Mum or my sister, but the child part of me still keeps looking for love and family. And then when I don't get it, it's kind of like I know that it's because I'm not worth it. It's a form of self punishment, but I just keep doing it. I don't understand myself. It's come to a head today because it hurt my son and I'm fiercely protective of my children.

Actually @Ulterego, my Mum is known for helping people in the village we live in, if you want practical help, she's your girl, but she doesn't seem to be able to give me emotional support. She and my sister are incredibly close, see each other daily, but neither of them have many friends, you're right about that, how did you know?

Sunshine her behaviour definitely constitutes abuse imo!
it may stem in part from an underlying illness, or perhaps better categorised as a personality disorder but aside from that her behaviour was damaging to you
She has not tried to make amends or reflect upon her behaviour, she has not matured as she ages so I think we can say that she is inherently dysfunctional.
Ideally what would you like to do, would you consider getting some therapy, can you envisage yourself at some point cutting your mother out of your life completely?

How do I know they don't have any friends?
well I certainly wouldn't give him the time of day so I don't imagine that anyone would want to spend time with them unless they felt obligated to because they were family members

chasing you have my profound sympathies, I think you’ve had a big change today. Your mother sounds as though she cannot offer you anything you need, and is actually hurting you. She may very well be a narcissist, meaning everything is happening in relation to her. Your feelings and needs are unimportant, only hers matter.

Your sister is equally hurtful, playing a game, enjoying feeling superior. I’m so sorry that these people who are supposed to love and care for you are failing you when you need support and care. It’s horrible, and I’m so sorry it’s happening.

Can you go and get some sleep? Listen to some music quietly? Think again in the morning, come back here and maybe go through some more ideas for moving forward. It’s hard, but things can get better, honestly 💐xx

As previous posters will attest it is often when the abusive parent escalates and targets your own child that you have that lightbulb moment and you think 'enough! I shall not stand for this anymore'
Just realised I made a mistake your mum is close to your sister I thought you meant she was close to her own sister so she's divided you up into golden child and scapegoat as per the usual script!
The reason that she makes a favourite of your sister is so as to more powerfully emphasize that you are the bad one it's the steepness of the contrast between you, it's a way of extending and increasing her power over you

Thank you @Herocomplex, I'm off to bed now, you're right that today had been a change because I can put up with stuff when it's me, but I can't let anyone hurt my boy. It is just a help to not feel quite so alone with this. Night x

ulter like many others knows a lot about people like your mum. They’re all very similar, they have common behaviours. Once you spot it it’s actually quite pathetic (if it wasn’t so horrible) in its predictability.

It is very painful when the people who are supposed to be there for you just don't have your back at all, and no doubt they would complain about the slightest disloyalty from you, you have nothing to feel guilty about cut them out completely they are only interested in you because they like controlling and hurting you.
I think you jhave to find a way to stop that impulse to reach out, if you can resist it for a while it gets easier as it goes along

Sunshine Your mother sounds a lot like mine. The mood swings, uncertainty, threatening to leave, etc. She's not as bad now but I think that's because she doesn't want to be alone so she knows she has to behave. The damage is done though. I also get the guilt tripping "I'd love to hear from you more often" but she's hard work. I'll see her tomorrow and DP is coming with me, he has a lot more patience for dealing with her than I do.

It is very hard when you've grown up in that environment and you're always on guard. It's no wonder the anxiety stays with us into adulthood, but it is possible to manage it with help.

Chasing What an awful situation. Your mother's reaction (agree with me or I'm not speaking to you again) is highly irrational. But you should see it as an opportunity to take a massive step back, for your wellbeing and that of your son. As PP said, none of this is your fault. Every child deserves love and nurturing, but unfortunately there are damaged people out there who are not fit to be parents. Sadly you, and the rest of us on this thread, were the unlucky ones who got saddled with them. Look up the Out of the Fog website, keep posting here and get therapy. It will help you to make some sense of it all.

SunshineAngel, yes, that is emotional abuse. Your mother abdicated all responsibility for managing her own moods by assigning that to you and your father. Your father left. As a child, you really didn't have that option. You became your mother's emotional punching bag, and this was at a time when you were trying to navigate your own growing up and your own development. No wonder you struggle with anxiety and with trying to work out how a healthy relationship works.

I've always said that when this happens, there are no visible bruises or scars to point to as evidence of abuse, but they are there nonetheless. Hidden and damaging.

I don't know how to make it better. I try to keep my distance tbh but doing that just gets me "why don't you visit more" texts, which make me feel guilty.

You can't make it better. Your mother has always been the same. She will not change. She has no need to change - what's the point of other people in her life if not to worry and tiptoe around her and take responsibility for making her feel better about herself? After all, it's always worked in the past. And if fear and obligation don't work as the necessary lever, then guilt is the next option. That's what she is doing now.

Sunshine, try to accept you are neither the cause nor the cure for what's going on. Keep your distance. If you want any form of contact with your mother, then make it on your terms. Do only as much or as little as you feel comfortable with - not as much as you feel you should; that's quite different. That's the FOG setting in. Some on here have very low contact with the family member causing them pain and grief. Some have no contact at all. Only you can decide what is best for you. The important thing is to accept that you are responsible now for your own mental health and emotional wellbeing and must do what is right for you.

I'm glad you have a supportive partner. A calm person who clearly loves and values you. That's what you deserve, not all the drama and angst you are getting from your mother.

When my husband and I temporarily separated, I told my Mum and her response was that she didn't want to speak to me until I had good news. She even continued to give me an anniversary card.

Chasingmytail14, that was downright cruel of your mother. Your sister too. I'm so sorry for the pain this caused you. For me, this encapsulates everything anyone needs to know about the pair of them and although it hurts so much, it's time to accept that they are fundamentally damaged people who have not a shred of empathy within them. They are not capable of having normal decent relationships with anyone.

You, on the other hand, are going through agonies for your son and his struggle. That tells me that you are a proper mother, a kind and decent human being. The fact that you managed to emerge from such a difficult upbringing with such strength and goodness is all to your credit.

Your son will emerge from his depression with care and time - you know that. He has you on his side. As others have said, he is your priority now and neither he nor you need the negative influence your mother wields so create some distance from her, for your sake and your son's. Good luck.

Thank you for your thoughts. I guess what I need help with is believing all this. I constantly make excuses and think that they believe their actions are supportive. I don't want to believe that either of them would deliberately hurt me. My sister currently has some problems and my Mum has told me I should be more supportive, so once again I'm feeling guilty for not being the daughter/sister that I should be. I constantly examine my own parenting and beat myself up when I see mistakes I've made. It affects my relationship with my husband because he says I can't believe that he really loves me. I don't know how to change my core feelings and my longing to be loved by my family.

Chasing you say your mum has told you that you should be more supportive towards your sister, as an outsider looking in your mother is NOT a person whose word I would give much weight to, NOT a person whose judgement I would trust.
She has tried to put you on the naughty step for answering back (ie contradicting her) this woman insults you by treating you like a small child
you are not beholden to her you are an adult, you do not have to answer to her, you can make your own choices based on what is in your own best interests.
Everything that your mother tells you to do do is rooted in what is best for your mother she is cruel and manipulative.
In your mind put her on the naughty step (she is the immature one) and LEAVE her there

Chasing, don't feel guilty for not being the sister or daughter that you should be, they don't treat you right why should you treat them right?
If you saw someone else returning for the same bad treatment you would think they were doormat, you would think they were a mug
don't be a mug don't be a doormat, put your foot down, don't put up with anymore of this shit
You don't have to tell them anything you don't have to explain yourself just do what's best for you.

chasing what you’re experiencing is called cognitive dissonance. You’ve spent so long denying your feelings, playing the good girl (if I’m really good mum will be happy and love me properly) that you no longer really know who you are.
Believe me, I’m only just realising all the things I haven’t done in my life because I thought if I fitted in with everyone else I’d be loved.

You can get yourself back, you were right about the psychodynamic counselling. It does work.

But you can understand your mum and your sister, and what makes them tick. It really helps to see how predictable and manipulative their behaviour is. It gives you a feeling of power, reduces that fear and ‘high-alert’ feeling, and that sad lost feeling when you’ve been with them.

You didn’t cause this, you can’t change them, but you can change what you do.

Do something else, think about something else, don’t answer messages (block them if you can). Do things on your terms. You can do it.

I can only echo what has been said. I did my utmost to be the ultimate Good Daughter. I turned myself into a 24/7 taxi and concierge service for my mother, putting my own health and my own marriage at risk, all in order to earn the tiniest scrap of her approval.

It didn't work. It made not one iota of difference.

My mother doesn't love me. Never has, never will. I am either useful to her, or not useful, and this determines how she behaves towards me. So I stopped batting my head against a brick wall.

Everything around us - the conventions of society - tells us that we should love and honour our parents. That our mothers love us unconditionally - and that if our own mother treats us badly, it must be our fault for being so awful and so unloveable. We must be such terrible people.

Except the hard and painful truth is that our mothers don't love us unconditionally and we are not bad people. It's something we have to come to terms with, and grieve for. Think of it this way; a healthy relationship is two-way, an exchange of love and affection and respect, a give-and-take, sometimes great and sometimes a bit fraught, but fundamentally strong and one from which both parties benefit.

What you have - what we all have in common on here - is not a healthy two-way relationship but something akin to a hostage situation in which one side calls all the shots and the other, the unhappy one, feels trapped and powerless. At first, you go along to get along, just to survive. However, there comes a point when you can no longer do this because it's taking over all areas of your life and you are finding it hard to function.

This is, I think, where you are now. It's a hard, hard place to be. But as the others have said, even though you can't change things, you can change what you do. Distance yourself. Give yourself time to concentrate what are really the most important things right now - your son, your marriage, your mental and emotional wellbeing. You really can do this, you know. Just concentrate on one day at a time.

Just to add, I'm taking my own advice. Dad was admitted to hospital on Friday, emergency admission again. No surprise really. I visited him yesterday and did my best to raise his spirits but he's pretty low. I've had no contact with M or middle sister but from everything DSis has told me, they are behaving like a pair of opera divas; all "me me me". So far, so predictable, so disappointing, so bloody selfish.

I haven't felt part of this family for some time now. When Dad goes, that's it. I'm blocking everyone apart from DSis. No guilt now and there will certainly be no regrets.

Singinglily it sounds as if you will have some peace and closure when your dad goes🌼