Ds1 is a nasty piece of work

[Cobblersandhogwash]

He's nearly 15.

He tells dd who is 12 to fuck off regularly. At least twice a day.

He wakes up ds3 who is 6 by poking his finger in his ear and scaring him.

He's just hurt ds2 who 9 by kneeling on his head.

He's super bright. Super selfish. Super vicious.

He smashed up his bedroom, his sister's bedroom and smashed in three doors.

We confiscate his gadgets. We penalise him by taking money from him.

He's having counselling. This is his 3rd counsellor. The others said there's nothing wrong with him.

But I'm not allowed to tell the counsellor any of this stuff as it's interfering in the confidentiality of their relationship. It's up to ds1 to tell the counsellor. As if he would.

I don't like him. I don't think I love him. His personality is so deeply unattractive.

Meanwhile, my other three children have to grow up in fear of this vindictive bully.

My family is screwed.

I alsop don't see how patient confidentiality could mean that you can't inform the counsellor about your family life. Surely it should just mean that the counsellor can't tell you what goes on during sessions? That's how it is where I am.

You are I think the 6th person on this thread who has "diagnosed" a 14 year old with psychopathy on the grounds that he told his sister to fuck off, put his finger in a brothers ear, knelt on someone, and argued with his mother in a "throwing my weight around" way about tech.

You’ve missed the massive, waving red flags that are ‘trashing his and his sibling’s room, smashing a door and threatening his mother with a screwdriver’.

That level of violence is not normal or safe for the other children living in that house.

OP It sounds awful.

I'm another of those posters who is going to come out and guess at psychopathy/sociopathy/antisocial personality disorder, even if you're not 'allowed' to officially give a child under 18 the labels.

I think psychopathy is genetic and sociopathy/narcissim can be caused by childhood trauma but either way they are highly refractory to treatment so really it might be about how to cope with this not how to 'cure' your son.

I actually thinks it's crueller of posters to imply that parenting or family dynamic is causing this.

Some posters seem to want to believe that anti social personalities don't exist or that a child can't have them or that everybody mean is 'fixable' if you give them therapy, but the fact is these personalities do exist. At least 1/100 people, possibly 1/25. Lack of conscience, lack of empathy, desire to dominate and control, made happy by fear and sadness in others. Charming when they choose, vicious when they choose. Often intelligent and great at fooling counsellors.

Once you've truly experienced it, you know these personalities do exist, and only wish someone had pointed it out to you sooner so you hadn't kept thinking they were like everybody else and could be reasoned with to become nicer. You can only appeal to their self-interest to become 'nicer' but they won't change just because you say it's upsetting people. They actually like upsetting people.

I can only advise you to involve the police now OP and think of ways that persuade your son it is in his self-interest to be externally nicer. I'm really, really sorry.

I would be very happy to be wrong btw and for a counsellor to be able to sort this out, but think personality disorder needs to be considered. Read up on sociopathy and see if it rings bells with you or not. You know him best.

@LoafofSellotape he gets very angry when I try to remove the gadget as a punishment.

I'm not walking into a wasps nest! I find out what has happened and then go to the room where the gadget may be to remove it. That is when his anger surges. That is when he tries to stop me physically.

How does he earn his stuff back?

OP he may only be 15, but he has the physicality of a man and is violent and threatening towards you and your younger children. Please protect yourself and them. You can work on figuring out what’s going on with DS1 once he’s away from you and the children and you and they are safe. The level of violence and malice is very, disturbing and will be damaging your younger children’s mental health and well-being.

Antibles’ post is very good.

Did you make any of the calls today OP? Or look at any of the links that posters sent - Early Help, NSPCC helpline, Young Minds?

If you've done that before and it hasn't helped then fair enough but I would have thought that talking to some professionals today would have been better than talking on here?

Do you know what? I give up.
I cannot fight against the armchair psychiatrists on this thread any longer.

Op, a twenty year career in psychology tells me that your best bet is family therapy.

That doesn't rule out that your son will eventually prove to have a personality disorder. However even if that proves to be the case (HE IS TOO YOUNG TO ETHICALLY DIAGNOSE AT HIS AGE) you still need better advice on how to manage him than the current confrontation and punishment regime you appear to be stuck in.

I am now hiding this thread.

None of us can diagnose what’s behind this. It’s daft to try. Personally I think a review by a good neuro developmental paed is the best starting place.
Where are you moving to with your dh? Will you have medical cover? Do you think you will be able to access the right kind of expert?

Look up callous unemotional children. not saying this is your son as a lot of things can cause this behaviour but you might find it interesting.

Someone downthread said "this is not normal childhood behaviour"

This is true, but that doesn't mean there aren't those of us out there who aren't already dealing with it.
It doesn't necessarily mean SEN, but certainly there are many parents on the SN boards with children who display challenging and violent behaviours. It happens.

Floatinginspace's advice is good.

You need deescalation strategies.
You need to equip your younger DC with strategies to keep themselves safe.

It's absolutely not easy. It's hard going, day in, day out.
But with the right strategies, support at school (even though he's seemingly coping whilst he's there doesn't mean he actually is), possibly medication, things can get better.

cobblersandhogswash my DC can be violent if they're not expecting an action - only last piece of advice is to make the routine really predictable with Ds's buy in to reduce the frictions. When he targeted his siblings, had they been in to his room or touched his things? Was he retaliating in some way for his space being invaded?

You haven't said much on what your DS's justification to YOU is for his behaviour?

Floatingthroughspace

Have you much experience of Antisocial Personality or psychopathy? I have huge experience from the other side, a lifetime. I laughed at another poster who commented that my B was “suspected” so we couldn't possibly say psychopathy as if he (or many psychopaths) has any interest in getting a diagnosis. The armchair diagnosis on my B came from multiple family therapists/family mediators dealing with the fallout of my Bs behaviour as detailed to them over the years. The purpose of even suggesting it by them was so my parents could start to see just how significant the problems were. They were in complete and utter denial. Whether he is or not will never be determined by a psychiatrist as he has skipped the country so he does not get prosecuted for any of his criminal actions.

OP try as hard as you can to make things better for your son, definitely seek out support, but do it with a priority of the physical safety and welling being of your other children. Lots of people simply cannot comprehend the damage a dangerous teenager can wreak.

Jesus Christ on a bike - some of the comments on here.

If that person is a Doctor then I'm a Supermodel.
Armchair diagnosis!!

Best of luck OP - use the private medical insurance to get an EHCP or another form of Assessment ? Unless you have already had one, apologies if so? I really hope you get some help, even if it does mean he doesn't live with you for the time being. And well done for sticking with this thread! It must have been tough.

Go private. We invest so much in our children, just budget for the £1,000 or whatever for a truly proper intervention
What about people who can't afford that though? Are their kids destined for the scrap heap then or branded 'psychopaths 'when they may need intervention or medication? How very sad.

we should all be fighting for better CAMHS funding, the waiting times are a disgrace. I couldn't blame any individual family for trying to circumvent it, but I do think they're best placed to co-ordinate professionals to help overall.

Op here has gone to some individual counsellor her DS has just played. If CAMHS/NHS therapy wait times were not crazy, I doubt she'd have done that.

You’ve missed the massive, waving red flags that are ‘trashing his and his sibling’s room, smashing a door and threatening his mother with a screwdriver

The fact that he has done these things tells us nothing of significance but that he was angry. It doesn't mean he's a psychopath, there's not enough info. An autistic kid might trash their room in meltdown (mine did, when I confiscated a game he was addicted to). He may have smashed down his door after being locked in there (I am not accusing the OP, just illustrating that the same behaviour could have lots of causes and some are less sinister).

The useful information isn't the behaviour itself but what caused it and how it was responded to.

I'm not walking into a wasps nest! I find out what has happened and then go to the room where the gadget may be to remove it. That is when his anger surges. That is when he tries to stop me physically

I wouldn't remove it when he's in the house.

Is he allowed to earn it back as a pp asked? I think that's really important.

@TheBigBallOfOil and @FloatingthroughSpace both make incredibly valid points about what to do practically NOW. I think your son need further investigation but a qualified professional. Trying to second guess a diagnosis that he wouldn't get for another several years is not useful. I think there may be value in reading up on how to deal with his behaviour and the literature mentioned down thread is super helpful. I don't envy you OP as I can imagine it all feels a bit hellish sometimes. But you're not giving up, even by posting here you're looking for more help. That's the sign of a good parent.

Fairly sure the SN board will have some suggestions for good paeds with expertise in this area.

He may have smashed down his door after being locked in there (I am not accusing the OP, just illustrating that the same behaviour could have lots of causes and some are less sinister).
The useful information isn't the behaviour itself but what caused it and how it was responded to.

I’d be more inclined to agree if we were talking about an eight year old child. But OP says he’s nearly as big as her physically. This is a man-sized person in the house, being violent, hurting children and threatening women with weapons. It’s an untenable situation. The consequences if he loses control are very severe. This isn’t a tantrumming child, it’s a violent person capable of inflicting a lot of harm. The priority must be keeping the little ones safe from him. They’re being terrorised in their own home. And while everyone is focussed on what to do about the teenager, they will be stacking up their own psychological chickens to come home to roost later. It’s a terrible thing to be afraid in your own home and feel powerless. They didn’t ask for any of this.

Get him out of the house as a priority and then work out what’s what in terms of appropriate treatments - if, indeed any can be found.

You can speak to his counsellor, but the counsellor cannot tell you what your son has said. In fact the first 5 mins of my DD's sessions were with just me, she went in for 45 mins then I joined her final 5 mins or so

@Cobblersandhogwash hi, it sounds like you are having such a tough time trying to handle his behaviour and the well-being of your other children.

Someone may have suggested elsewhere, but I'm wondering if you can get one of the indoor cameras at home that connect to wifi? We have several Nest ones to monitor our dogs when we are out and there is an option to pay a year subscription which gives you recording functions.

You can choose when they are switched on or off. Maybe his behaviour would be captured on that and then shown to your gp. Might sound silly but all they see is the child you present to them at the appt, so don't see what is actually going on and are confronted only with words. My jobs makes me more of a go and see for yourself person, but the health professionals don't have the time for that, so this may be away round it. Maybe it would even help your ds see how he is behaving?

A lot of this sounds very familiar with dd15 eg annoying her brother relentlessly for fun (last night was 1.5 hours). I finally snapped and said some awful things to her. Anyone with a challenging teen can see how it happens.

Like with yours, punishments escalate the behaviour and cause her to smash things, an ipad, 2 phones, a tv, various toys, hairbrushes, you name it. Sometimes I do charge her simply because I can't afford to keep replacing things and why should I if I didn't break it?

Other times, I feel just what's the point as it doesn't make a difference. Today, she was out all day and I needed that break. No point in grounding as it's a punishment for me.

My strategy is to try to get things out of her when she is calm. The annoying thing she does is worse when agitated. She is worried about impending gcses. She is not an A student .

She has been through camhs, has an ocd diagnosis. The psychiatrist thought she had ADHD (so do I) but the diagnosis was rejected because the school didn't agree.

It is so frustrating, isn't it , and, sadly the judgement on here is very common- even with so called professionals.

I challenge any of you to live with this for 5 minutes. None of you would know what to do with yourselves

Hi OP

I haven’t read the whole thread but just wanted to let you know that I had a similar situation with my DDs counsellor. She didn’t want to hear anything from me about the problem for which she was accessing the counselling (stress related teenage meltdowns) so I left them to it and after the last of TEN sessions DD that she had never actually told the counsellor about the meltdowns (because she was “embarrassed” about them)

I mentioned this to a counsellor I know in a separate capacity and he said when he works with troubled teens he will always talk to the parents first! It would have been very helpful. I was so frustrated after it all. I guess different counsellors have different approaches