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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Ds1 is a nasty piece of work

271 replies

Cobblersandhogwash · 21/07/2019 16:43

He's nearly 15.

He tells dd who is 12 to fuck off regularly. At least twice a day.

He wakes up ds3 who is 6 by poking his finger in his ear and scaring him.

He's just hurt ds2 who 9 by kneeling on his head.

He's super bright. Super selfish. Super vicious.

He smashed up his bedroom, his sister's bedroom and smashed in three doors.

We confiscate his gadgets. We penalise him by taking money from him.

He's having counselling. This is his 3rd counsellor. The others said there's nothing wrong with him.

But I'm not allowed to tell the counsellor any of this stuff as it's interfering in the confidentiality of their relationship. It's up to ds1 to tell the counsellor. As if he would.

I don't like him. I don't think I love him. His personality is so deeply unattractive.

Meanwhile, my other three children have to grow up in fear of this vindictive bully.

My family is screwed.

OP posts:
dozy12345 · 23/07/2019 11:26

Thanks for the links - I’ve found explosive child useful too, I often use it to discuss routine changes, I agree the more planned and expected things are, the less reaction we get.

My dc1 still struggles with the existence of dc2, 5 years later.

Abstractedobstructed · 23/07/2019 16:27

I met my husband when he was 18 and his brother 16.
The first time I visited his house, there were kick marks in all the doors where the boys had tried to kick them in. My husband told me about the time when his brother threw a chair at him, he ducked and it smashed to pieces on the wall behind him. He told me he once found himself holding his brother over the stairs about to drop him and he shocked himself.

He has never shown any inclination to violence with me in the thirty years we have been together and regards his brother as one of his best friends. With the kids he can occasionally yell but again, nothing inappropriate.

If his mum had come on here back then and said my eldest lifted my younger boy and almost threw him down the stairs, and they have kicked in all my doors, would she have been told he's got a personality disorder? Fwiw I think they were lost - divorced parents in the 70s when it was rare, tiny house where they couldn't get away from each other, tired shouty single parent mum who was worn down by it all. He's actually in management and is a very kind person who has not become the psychopath that he promised to be as an angry teenager....

ravenmum · 23/07/2019 17:05

I asked him if he really thought it was okay to hurt his siblings.
I then asked him that it appears he dislikes his family the way he treats us.

I can understand why you think he really is a nasty piece of work, but have you tried pretending to think that he's an OK person really and someone who just has e.g. a secret fear, or some other secret issue that is bothering him? I wonder, if you say "It seems you dislike us", if he might understand that as "You are nasty" and feel like he has to hit back at you, e.g. by pretending not to care, or saying something to hurt your feelings?

You know him better than me, obviously! But I agree with a pp that maybe family mediation would help if you did find a decent counsellor.

Sorry to ask, but you are 100% sure that there's not been any abuse from neighbours, family members etc.?

pudding21 · 24/07/2019 10:19

Hi Op

I just wanted to tell you of my experience with a situation a bit like yours within my family. My older sister had issues from a baby, found it difficult to settle, had severe reflux and milk intolerance (this was 43 years ago and my mum had no help and just had to get on with it). She was underweight, fractious and used to bite/hit/kick off with me and my brother. She was such a difficult child when my mum was pregnant with me and had pre eclampsia, the doctors prescribed my sister sedatives so my mum could get some rest (like I said 43 years ago). Anyway, as a toddler she would deliberatley do things to get a reaction, had the most horrendous tantrums, and was labelled a difficult hard child.

My brother and I came along and in comparison we were easy children and had no real issues. My sister (is very very bright) failed at school, got into recreational drugs, boys and alcohol at a young age, and has been struggling throughout her whole life. My parents didn't want to label her a difficult child, but she was tough, and still is to deal with. She has worked all her life with long periods off sick, she cannot cope with modern life well and is now an alcoholic (with periods of functioning, then long binges). She has been in rehab
twice, she has had lots of counselling. She has nearly got married 3 times, then ends up cheating or behaving so badly the men who love her leave her. Her behaviour has been so destructive she has lost the custody of her 9 year old, but continued to act like it wasn;t her fault.

She lacks empathy for others in terms of what her behaviour does to those around her and she seems not to have the skills to get herself out of the shit she caused. She also has an amazing ability to move past isses she has caused and never own up to her own responsibilities. She is very lucky she has a family who love her very much, although she has pushed most of us away, and still cant see her role in that.

It reached a huge head this last year, and in the last few months we have managed to push her gently into getting a psychiatirc assesment. They have diagnosed her as BPD probably anxious avoidant, with narcisstic traits. She can now hopefully have the right therapy and treatment and heal her addiciton. When she was born my parents were under huge stress for different reasons and I don't think either my mum nor dad managed to bond with her that well. I am sure that had a lot to do with it at the start. Then the self comparison that myself and my brother were favourites, being labelled (unintentionally) a difficult child, making bad choices and I dont think my parents (as much as I adore them), managed her in the right way.

She got away with a lot as a kid as my parents were almost scared to pull her up on things because she would fly off the handle and they wanted to keep the peace. She does not self regulate well, and her coping mechanism has been alcohol. In turn she has made some awful life changing choices when she has been drunk. I do not blame my parents as they are good people and I think they have done what they could within their knowledge and experience (my dad was only 19 when she was born so a child himself really). MY mum had her own issues throughout our childhood, my dad also worked overseas a lot and it was left to my mum to do most of the parenting. Like I said, my brother and I have no issues with the way we were parented, but it was clear my sister needed a different approach (with hindsight). My sister is not a psychopath.

Others have given really good advice here but I want to echo the Psychiatric assesment route (not counselling). Dialetctical behavioural therapy is what my sister will now receive (she has had CBT ect in the past but it didn't help). Her counselling has almost enabled her and given her so many excuses for her behaviour she didn't see any ownership.It was always everyone elses fault. She really is and has been a tortured soul all her life, and found it difficult to fit in. If my mum had mumsnet then, perhaps the right help would have made a diffrence at an early age. She says she drinks to numb herself and block the world around her.

Some other info we have found out recently which would contribute to her issues are that we have two mutated genes that are relevant. One makes it difficult to utilise B vitamins, in particular B6 and B9. Both these are associated with the synthesis of happy hormones. We also have a mutated gene which degrades dopamine. These genes can be switched on and off depending on enviroment and lifestyle. What this means is, with a good diet (not a standard UK or American diet, but plant based whole food diet or a diet specifically proven to help with psychiatric disorders), this can be improved.

There is a lot of evidence surrounding nutiriton and mental health. Modern life has moved on so much in the last 50 years and evolution hasn't quite caught up yet causing epidemics in chornic health and mental health conditions we have never seen before. There are also links between our gut microbiology and our mental and physical health. He might look perfectly healthy on the outside, but there may be deficiencies and microbiology directly having a negative impact on his mental health.

How is his diet? How is his general health (has he had antibiotics in the past)? Is he the eldest and did you have a different set up then than you did with your younger children?

I would also suggest taking a look at these youtube videos, to help explain the link between diet/gut health and psychiatry.

Your son is crying out for help even though he can't see that now, jesus its taken my sister 43 years to even admit she has an issue. It needs to be a holistic approach in order for his behaviour not to affect the rest of his and your lifes. Believe me, my parents now when they should be in their retirement and enjoying life are still focused on my sister and her troubles. They have and never would disown her but its taken a massive toll on them and the extended family.

I feel for you, it must be very frustrating and hard to know which way to turn, but there are ways you can help before he starts a even further downward spiral and enters the adult world, where addicitons could easily take hold. I imagine his like of video games is because the dopamine hit he gets from them is hard, but its like a rush, then a acute stop and his brain cannot cope with it. Keep up with the boundaries, and talking with him, but he is probably finding the whole thing just as cofnusing as you.

I understand how difficult it must be for you, how tiring it must be, how hard it is for the other kids etc. I will say, I love my sister very much, I could see she struggled in places I didn't quite so much and her behaviour has not scared me in any way. Although sometimes it was frustrating everything always seems to be about her, my brother and I have grown up to be very resilient and self assured (with a huge helping of compassion). I think as long as you are talking together and the other kids see you are protecting them as much as possible and helping their brother, you will be ok.

If you can afford boarding school, I would urgently get a private Psychiatric appointment, and consider finding someone who specialises in mental health, nutrition and holistic therapy. Good luck OP.

MerryMarigold · 24/07/2019 10:53

He sounds very motivated academically, very intelligent and highly complex. He was probably a high needs child, which combined with having a lot of siblings has led to some issues, but he doesn't sound that awful. I think you're treating him badly, OP. You seem to hate him. You've forgotten if there ever were good times and good characteristics. He's a pain in your life and your other children's lives. I can only imagine he feels like if he can do no right he may as well let it all out and go for it. Even your chat with him sounds like a lecture. Clearly the techniques you have used on him haven't worked. You need to see the potential he was born with, you need to acknowledge your responsibility in the way he is. To be honest, boarding school may be the best thing for him, bit it will destroy your relationship for ever. I'm not saying it's easy. I have a difficult eldest too and sometimes I do hate him, but I try and remember the sweet child he is underneath and when I treat him that way, he so different. He's also majorly lovely if we go out 1:1 and do something nice even if it's a bit of shopping to get him something, but where he's not around his siblings. I really real for him, OP. It's the study thing to feel unloved and worse, disliked, by your own mum. His character is such that he will be angry you feel that and hence the behaviour.

gandalf456 · 24/07/2019 12:48

I agree with you Merrymarigold about needing to rebuild the relationship but the tone of your post isn't helpful . The boy does sound very challenging and the op is only human as to how much she, and the other children for that matter, can weather. Im certain she doesn't really hate him, just the behaviour .

There is a bit more to it than taking him out for an ice cream and a chat. It's gone too far now and he needs proper intervention

GoGoGoGoGo · 24/07/2019 13:07

oooh I take issue with ruling out autism on the basis of him behaving in other contexts - HFAs are quite able to mask outside the home

Absolutely this. My DS masks and explodes when he gets home. Think of it as a fizzy bottle that gradually gets shaken up during the day, then erupts. I recommend reading ‘The Explosive Child’.

It sounds like you need help, I got my child assessed by speaking to school first. It sounds like you’ve been massively let down.

MerryMarigold · 24/07/2019 15:35

That's true, Gandalf and I think I could have let the original post go as a bit of a rant, but each subsequent post by the OP has upset me further and given me an insight into how this child must be feeling. I can relate a bit as I always felt like 'the bad one'. I was very closed off, depressed, disliked. I can also relate as I do have a difficult child too. OP seems to be picking on every relatively small thing he does. (There are some more serious ones too) and then posters leaping on this poor kid too. Sometimes the truth is necessary and isn't palatable.

rosabug · 24/07/2019 16:05

That article that bumblinbovine shared. It's all there. He's a reflection of you and your household. You need to change. No matter how horrible my kid was I'd try to understand and solve the problem. Calling your child a "nasty piece of work" on a public forum says quite a lot.

Teddybear45 · 24/07/2019 16:11

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blackcat86 · 24/07/2019 17:34

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Abstractedobstructed · 24/07/2019 18:46

Teddy - have reported your post. Worst advice I have ever read on here and that is saying something!

CacenCrunch · 24/07/2019 18:51

The first thing I would do is take the Xbox away completely

LoafOfSellotape · 24/07/2019 20:08

At 15 you really need to be starting to treat a kid as an young adult not removing consoles- you need to save stuff like that for the really bad stuff ime. It'll only give him another thing to kick off about and resent you for.

I think the advice on this thread would be very different if you asked how to help your ds, an awful lot of blame seems to come across in your posts OP.

LoafOfSellotape · 24/07/2019 20:20

Ds1 has always hated being asked to do stuff. Like put on his shoes. Get dressed. Come and join us for a family meal. It triggers at best, intense irritation in him and at worst, anger

It does my ds as well,I think he has so much going on in his head when he hears "Go and put your shoes on" it interrupts his train of thought and he gets irritated/angry.

I have found the best way was to leave him to get ready completely by himself ,if he's late he has to deal with the consequences. Rather than tell him to put his shoes on ,saying "we're going in half an hour" and leaving it at that is less confrontational (in his eyes.)

It's how I interact with him that makes the difference. He's not like it with his dad so I suspect we're a similar and therefore more likely to clash.

Strawberrypancakes · 24/07/2019 20:26

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Strawberrypancakes · 24/07/2019 20:30

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maevebride · 24/07/2019 20:32

Hi!
Sounds horrible all round. Please look at NVR - no -violent resistance. Does your son see the counsellor thru CAMHS? If so, ask to see the lead clinician and request a referral to NVR training/specialist. Try this link - www.partnershipprojectsuk.com/non-violent-resistance-nvr/parents/. Good luck xx

crazyhead · 24/07/2019 20:46

The sheer diversity of responses here - from troubled teenager who grew up fine, to you are not doing things right as a parent, to stories of adult children who later turned out to have BDD, says to me you need expert, focused help. Because let's face it, it could be any of these things, or a mixture, or none of them. We can just hear that this is awful for you and quite probably awful for him.

What can you afford? Can you afford a counsellor for you and your husband (or counselling psychologist - with mental health training), or a family therapist? Can you afford assessment for your son? There's so little money in the system that you may need to consider this. Maybe military school is the answer but I think that real support with this decision would be good. I'm really sorry - it sounds incredibly tough.

Cosentyx · 24/07/2019 22:19

What a lovely post, icecream.

LoafOfSellotape · 24/07/2019 22:34

Another thought- if he's seeing a therapist now he must be willing to seek help as he actually attends the sessions. This is a good sign that he wants to improve things at home.

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