Ds1 is a nasty piece of work

[Cobblersandhogwash]

He's nearly 15.

He tells dd who is 12 to fuck off regularly. At least twice a day.

He wakes up ds3 who is 6 by poking his finger in his ear and scaring him.

He's just hurt ds2 who 9 by kneeling on his head.

He's super bright. Super selfish. Super vicious.

He smashed up his bedroom, his sister's bedroom and smashed in three doors.

We confiscate his gadgets. We penalise him by taking money from him.

He's having counselling. This is his 3rd counsellor. The others said there's nothing wrong with him.

But I'm not allowed to tell the counsellor any of this stuff as it's interfering in the confidentiality of their relationship. It's up to ds1 to tell the counsellor. As if he would.

I don't like him. I don't think I love him. His personality is so deeply unattractive.

Meanwhile, my other three children have to grow up in fear of this vindictive bully.

My family is screwed.

@ScreamingLadySutch read my post yesterday at 18.01

It sounds like your punishments and dislike of him are not motivating him or having desired effect. I think the answer is unlikely to be worse and more severe punishments. You may need a different approach. Have you considered he may have something like demand avoidant tendencies, or an autistic spectrum condition.
He sounds an awful lot like my older brother as a child, which was difficult for me and my mum. She coped by putting him in boarding school, which luckily was authority funded as he is deaf, but I wonder if there is still help out there like this in some ways. Insisting on a residential school? I doubt it, but you never know, especially if you made enough noise to social services? As an adult I can clearly see my brother is a highly intelligent autistic, but we do not get on, as he is such a difficult character (he still dislikes me) but he did calm down a great deal when he discovered religion.

In my experince of demand avoidant children, even though it is part of the autistic spectrum for many people, it can be more challenging, as you need to use far more negotiation. There may be tips on the internet or support groups if you read up and find it might be part of the reason? There are strategies out there, and while you may be under such stress that you find your child hard to love at the moment, there may be better ways of changing his behaviour than you have tried.

Wishing you strength

professional bullshitter bingo! A 7th person on the thread suggesting a personality disorder that is never diagnosed in the UK in children. It is never diagnosed in children because it is unethical to lay the blame on a child's inherent personality and not examine the family context, interactions and so on. What are your qualifications to identify a personality disorder in a child?

Clearly this youngster and his parent are stuck in a negative interaction cycle. Op taking 100 pounds from a 13 or 14 year old for trashing a room (how much money does he have?) and "squaring up" to them sound completely confrontational. I understand you haven't found the support you have needed but you need to look to relationship and family therapy rather than expecting any work on your son alone to be effective. You need to explore the patterns of interaction you have both adopted.

My eldest is autistic and if I chose to I could square up to him and induce violence at any time and on any occasion. In fact I manage his behaviour by a combination of anticipating issues, planning, rules, judicious ignoring and picking my battles. I can't remember the last time he melted down and yet today I have persuaded him to complete a sensory task he loathes and attend an appointment he dislikes. I don't know if the sort of techniques that helped me would help you but what is emphatically unhelpful in any parent/ teen relationship is confrontation and a sense of victimisation in the teen. Have you read "get out if my life, but first take me and Alex into town"? I found it very helpful on learning how parenting teens is different. I also recommend "how to talk so kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk" which gave me invaluable advice on parenting in a way in which youngsters feel heard. Coupled with "the explosive child" books I would use those as a starting point whilst you search for more effective family support.

To be honest it sounds like he has been screaming out for help and you tell him to fun off and square up to him? What the hell? Maybe some parenting classes could help you

@FloatingThroughSpace excellent reply.

@FloatingThroughSpace excellent reply I agree

Hear hear @floating

A very close family member did her entire PhD about psychopathy in children. There is increasing evidence that psychopathy has a genetic factor. Crucially, what her research helped to discover was that, if psychopathic traits are spotted early enough in young children, it’s possible to mitigate them (but never eradicate them completely). If left unchecked it can lead to a very unstable personality in adulthood.

So although I am no more qualified to diagnose a child with psychopathy than you are to dish out family therapy over the internet, I probably do have a bit more insight into it than the average person. And I don’t think it should be dismissed out of hand so easily.

So although I am no more qualified to diagnose a child with psychopathy than you are to dish out family therapy over the internet, I probably do have a bit more insight into it than the average person

Because a family member did a PhD in it?

@katy78

Sorry I’m just fed up of posts where people seem to think that they’ve done nothing wrong and it’s only the fault of the child in question.

Tbh I think the shout of potential SEND might be worth pursuing.

I lived with someone for five years who did a PhD in child psychopathy and over that time they discussed a lot of their research with me in detail. Because I asked lots of questions and found it really interesting.

Of course I picked up some knowledge that most other people wouldn’t normally.

Unless you’re having regular conversations with academics about their research into child psychopathy too??

professional you never asked about my qualifications....but let's just say I am more qualified than you in this arena.

What is the purpose of you telling this parent that her son sounds like a psychopath? At almost 15 it will not be possible to commute traits in early childhood.

You don’t know my qualifications either!

And children show psychopathic traits from as early as four or five.

...which is why I asked for them!

@LoafofSellotape thanks for the virtue signalling - yes, you are a very GOOD and CARING person and FAR BETTER person than Sutch. We got it.

All books have themes and sub themes (English Literature 101). I was referring to the particular sub theme of Lionel Shriver (very very very very common in a lot of families) where one parent tries to address a problem and is not supported by the other parent who just denies there is a problem. Or one partner tries to address etc, very common subject on this thread. That is what I was asking about.

Sorry that another book did not come to mind, but there it is.

When I am squaring up to him, it's when he has hurt one of his siblings and I am trying to confiscate the Xbox or his phone or his iPad as punishment.

He will come up to me and put his face right up to mine in a threatening manner. I have to stand my ground.

I'm not squaring up to him to threaten him or to start a fight. I'm trying to take something away from him because he's been violent to his sibling.

It's like MN bingo on here today, psychopaths, call the police and now virtue signalling.

Dh is very aware there are issues in the family.

What worries him most is the constant lying and denial of events by ds1.

Dh doesn't see how we can even begin to address the behaviour when ds1 will just refuse to acknowledge what has happened.

OP how challenging for you. I can't even imagine.

If you were to go for a walk just the two of you, would he talk to you? Show any insight?

Really hope some of the advice given here works for you all. Huge hugs xxxxx

He will come up to me and put his face right up to mine in a threatening manner. I have to stand my ground

Have you tried walking away?

Do you remove consoles when he's angry and in the middle of losing his temper?

It sounds like this has gone way beyond ‘love bombing’ him out of the behaviour, or having a cosy chat with a sympathetic counsellor.

Right now it almost doesn’t matter the reason why: he’s being physically violent in your house and is terrorising his younger siblings. Their safety should be a priority. If that means he needs to leave the home, so be it.

For people saying this is normal child behaviour. You are wrong. Children close in age may argue and fight with one another but it’s a completely different scenario to hurt siblings so much younger.

My sister is 9 years older than me and would never have dreamt of huting me, she treated me gently and understood I was only little so wouldn’t bother arguing with me. My partner’s little brother is also 9 years younger than him and he’s always humoured him and treated him age appropriately.

It is psychopathic to hurt and scare a 6 year old when you’re 15. At 15 you know what you’re doing. Mumsnet has a tendency to forgive the most extreme behaviour in teens because they’re “kids”. A teen knows that taunting, intimidating, bullying and hurting is wrong- let alone doing that to younger children.

Has he been tested for the usual stuff such as ADHD, being gifted etc?
What does he say the problem is? Does he have moments when you could sit down and talk to him, and get a relatively calm response?

My son had less serious issues than yours but there was obviously something disturbing him. I thought it was probably anxiety as I had suffered from it myself, but it took years getting through the system before he finally came across the right counsellor for him. Before that we just had the same tests for ADHD time after time, and a counsellor who saw him three times, presumably asked leading questions and constructed a whole made-up story about how we shouted at one another in front of him. I'm glad I persisted and looked for other avenues, as eventually we found the right person/right time.