Ds1 is a nasty piece of work

[Cobblersandhogwash]

He's nearly 15.

He tells dd who is 12 to fuck off regularly. At least twice a day.

He wakes up ds3 who is 6 by poking his finger in his ear and scaring him.

He's just hurt ds2 who 9 by kneeling on his head.

He's super bright. Super selfish. Super vicious.

He smashed up his bedroom, his sister's bedroom and smashed in three doors.

We confiscate his gadgets. We penalise him by taking money from him.

He's having counselling. This is his 3rd counsellor. The others said there's nothing wrong with him.

But I'm not allowed to tell the counsellor any of this stuff as it's interfering in the confidentiality of their relationship. It's up to ds1 to tell the counsellor. As if he would.

I don't like him. I don't think I love him. His personality is so deeply unattractive.

Meanwhile, my other three children have to grow up in fear of this vindictive bully.

My family is screwed.

Apologies,I haven't read the whole thread only the first few pages. I work in mental in particular with adolescents. I feel a deep sense of concern for your son and of course for you and your DC, he is acting out a deep sense of distress. Boundaries are needed here to keep you all safe, however the worst possible reaction could be to push him away or to put him in care. This never in my experience delivers a wake up call, only a sense of abandonment during a desperate time of need. Please contact his counsellor and inform him/her of his recent behaviour this is extremely concerning for all of you and needs more support than you are all receiving. I would also speak with your GP and ask for a CAMHS referral if you do not feel he/she is responding. I am wondering if you have always found your son unlikeable and unlovable, or if this is a new feeling since his behaviour has escalated. I am not sure if more has been revealed further down in the post but I am wondering if you have an idea around the possible trigger for his intimidating behaviour, could he be acting out his own experience of being a victim of a violence and / or bullying behaviour.

What is he like when spending quality time with you?

It might be worth treating him to a full day of just your company, doing something enjoyable together in order to reconnect and open up a dialogue.
How do you think he would respond to something like this?

OP, I’m so sorry you’re coping with this situation. I think one of the most useful bits of advice on here is to look at the book “the explosive child”. It’s a really well thought out approach to stepping back and thinking through how to manage this type of situation, including the violence.

It may well be that your son is just out of control at the moment because life is... out of control for him. He’s 14; the world is a bloody overwhelming experience; and we all cope in different ways (although his seem fairly self-destructive coping mechanisms). You have described lots of life stresses (exclusion from school, moving, possibly going to a military school) which most of us would find huge. It sounds like he’s had maladaptive strategies for coping for a long time; you can see why this point has become overwhelming to the point he’s just not coping at all.

Squaring up to him probably isn’t the answer; but de-escalating may help you stop before you both get to that point.

Another thought; my son (ASD) uses techy stuff almost like stimming; it’s his way of de-stressing and, to some extent, excluding lots of other (negative) sensory stimulation. Are there any safer forms of gaming that your son could access so that he has this? On an agreed, timed basis (give him the timer - with the clear understanding that he’s being trusted and mustn’t abuse that trust). Just taking it away would be so anxiety provoking that we’d all struggle to cope!

Good luck

What would happen if you recorded the incidents?

Just wanted to follow up with OP, and check if you are OK? I still stand by my earlier comments, and I hope that they help and not hurt you.
The fact that he monitors his behaviour around a grown man who could - essentially - physically harm him says it all to me... Yes, there are probably impulse, personality, hormone issues at play, but he knows his audience, and he knows that he can terrorise you and the other children. Some kids stop and grow out of it. Great. Do you believe he will? Because if not, please, please get help. You deserve it, and ALL of your children deserve it. I wish the best possible outcome for you all.

Hi yes. Still here. Taking stock.

I chatted to him yesterday alone.

I asked him if he really thought it was okay to hurt his siblings.

"Depends what they do to me," was his reply. As in how much they annoy him. 🙄

I reiterated that in this house he is not to hurt anyone. And he is to come to me straightaway if they are bugging him.

Same conversation as always.

I then asked him that it appears he dislikes his family the way he treats us. He said he doesn't. I asked how he feels about another boarding school.

He smiled and said we couldn't get him there. How would we even get him in the car? I suppose he's right.

He strikes me as someone who thinks they ought to be able to do what they, do what they want to other people and what on Earth are we, his family, going to be able to do about it?

And now I am going to catch up with all the other posts that people have so kindly taken the time to write.

Thank you so much.

Sorry you are going through this OP.

When he chose to go boarding, did he give any reasons why?

He strikes me as someone who thinks they ought to be able to do what they, do what they want to other people and what on Earth are we, his family, going to be able to do about it?

Tbh OP that just sounds like a normal standard gobby teenager response.

It does. Mine is the same. They are selfish creatures

yes he sounds gobby to me. Did you follow up the 'depends' with an explanation that this behaviour will end him up in jail, and that he's training himself for misery by thinking it's ok to treat people he loves like that.

Plus, if I got the 'you couldn't get me in the car' comment, you should've squashed that with a 'no we will get you in the car'. I'm sure you and your DH and other family if necessary could get him somewhere.

I'm not saying you should do it, but you need to call him on feeling the threat is on his side.

Try not to see this as permanent character stuff, you need to appeal to his good side more than letting him get away with spouting more nonsense.

But you urgently need family counselling to talk about what he's said with another adult in the room who's trained to respond.

Your ds not going to say he feels bad about hurting his family as you're in an adversarial relationship at the moment and that would be giving you ammunition. If you keep having the same conversation you need to dig deeper and tell him that this isn't a real conversation as it resolves nothing.

Go private. We invest so much in our children, just budget for the £1,000 or whatever for a truly proper intervention
What about people who can't afford that though? Are their kids destined for the scrap heap then or branded 'psychopaths 'when they may need intervention or medication? How very sad.

• who cares about other people? Focus on the one person you can control - yourself. Put your own oxygen mask on before you help others. This family can clearly afford it, which is why I said it.
• if people took more responsibility individually (paid for intervention rather than whining but still clearly having spending money [Sky, holidays])
• there would more resources for those who genuinely need it.

yes, my kids because they are my direct responsibility. I can try and vote for better CAMHS and therapy funding but that's all I can do for other people.

Not getting help for my DC because other people can't afford to pay is cruel to my DC. I've signed many petitions but what else can we do, sign petitions, vote, talk about underfunding of MH on Mumsnet.

" I asked how he feels about another boarding school.

He smiled and said we couldn't get him there. How would we even get him in the car?"

Nice thoughtful chat OP, but still its all about him and what he thinks. Where are the consequences?

In a horse herd, the misbehaving horse is 'sent away'. To be outside the herd is death to a horse, so they apologise and ask back in. So this communication is used in training.

It hasn't occurred to your boy that you as a family might not want him there as a result of his behaviour, ie, HIS actions = boarding school that is tougher. And he doesn't get a say.

i wouldnt go private it takes you out of the system, much better to stay in the system

it doesn't though EleanorReally you can do both, concurrently. You can wait 2 years for your CAMHS assessment whilst paying privately to see any number of psychologists, counsellors, SLTs, OTs, psychiatrists etc.

You are not disqualified from being on NHS wait lists because you can go privately too, or perhaps you think that'd be ideal? I never understand why anyone would think the right thing for desperate parents is for them to be forced to wait on a wait list as their kids' behaviour implodes.

I think private therapy will be a lot more than £1k. One to one counselling is approx £50+ an hour but if boarding school is an option then obviously there is the money available.

I think the OP should stop thinking about boarding school unless she wants to damage her relationship with her son forever,it won't help him , it'll build further resentment.

What are his good qualities,what does he enjoy doing, does he have mates, what makes him laugh?

I am a parent of a child who is challenging, with aggressive and violent behaviour.
His doesn't just manifest at home but at school too (he's now at a special school). He's restrained at school on a regular basis.

The thing is, we have all the 'support' everyone keeps saying the OP needs (and she absolutely does) - CAHMS, social services, development paediatrician, SALT, OT, private psychologist. But he's still very challenging. And they are not there day in, day out like I am (my DH also works away a fair amount).

DS has a diagnosis of high functioning autism with a very demand avoidant profile, and ADHD.
He's very very bright, can argue himself out of any situation. Assesses and identifies people's weaknesses in a heartbeat.

What's helped me the most is reading up on deescalation strategies, especially those for PDA. He does have to have a completely different style of parenting to DD. Authoritarian just makes everything 1000 worse.
He needs love and understanding most when it's the last thing you feel like giving.
He can seem cold and clinical, but actually he's just factual. He loves animals (more than humans) - you have never seen anyone as gentle and caring and knowledgeable around them as him. I'm hoping we can harness that somehow.

In terms of 'sending him away' - there's not a huge amount of options, other than residential special schools. I would consider this if I felt it was in his best interest, but currently I don't feel it is. But that could change as he gets older.

There is a lot in the press at the moment about ATUs (assessment and treatment units) where a lot of violent teens end up. These are really modern day psychiatric prisons staffed by underpaid and under-qualified people who rely on sedation and violence to manage their inpatients.
You need to avoid your DS ending up in one of these at all costs.

Of course you need to trigger all the support and agencies mentioned previously, but for me the biggest thing is that the change has to come from you. I know that's possibly not what you want to hear. I wish it wasn't true for us, but it is.

My younger DD understands DS's triggers; she has to. Life isn't easy for her, but she knows how to keep herself safe when he meltdowns. If DS had a visible or physical disability she would have to learn to adapt around that - this is no different.

@FuriousVexation he chose to do weekly boarding because boarders get 10% better grades on average than non boarders at that school.

He might have chosen boarding but could still have felt pushed away, op. I agree with marshmallow, it’s often when they least seem to need love that they actually need it most.

Non violent resistance/de-escalation strategies - anyone have any links or books to recommend? I tried to find a course in our area but couldn’t.

One dc is violent when distressed.

www.partnershipprojectsuk.com/non-violent-resistance-nvr/parents/

NVR

DS is very antagonistic towards DD, but when unpicking it I think it's because he's often bored and provoking a reaction from her entertains him.

Solution - recognise the subtle signs of when he is getting bored and intervene proactively before anything kicks off with options for how he can entertain himself in a positive way.

It means my parenting is full on, never relaxed. But it protects DD and avoids DS's triggers.

The Explosive Child Book is so good because it gets you to analyse everything, identify triggers and come up with a proactive collaborative Plan about how you deal with it.

Losing games is a huge trigger for DS. But games are everywhere. We currently have an agreement he can swear all he wants, but he doesn't hurt DD when he loses.
In an ideal world I wouldn't want him to swear, but it was his suggestion and it helps him stay in control. So for now, it's working.

www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-neuroscientist-who-discovered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/

Just for interest.

I wish people wouldn't equate psychopathy with serial killers or 'writing someone off'. It helps nobody to ignore the fact that personality disorders exist.

Most people with antisocial personality disorder and a decent upbringing are perfectly capable of functioning in society - when they've used their intelligence to decide it's in their interests to do so. When they are choosing to inflict harm, however, they can range from unpleasant to dangerous.

I'm quite happy to accept I'm hazarding a guess here, but it's simply to present a potential alternative diagnosis to the OP. One that society is curiously reluctant to admit to in individual cases. It's like people almost cannot bring themselves to believe that some individuals are wired differently and do not experience empathy like they do.

Conduct disorder in children:
www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg158/chapter/introduction

From the NICE website:

"The coexistence of conduct disorders with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is particularly prevalent and in some groups more than 40% of children and young people with a diagnosis of conduct disorder also have a diagnosis of ADHD. Conduct disorders in childhood are also associated with a significantly increased rate of mental health problems in adult life, including antisocial personality disorder – up to 50% of children and young people with a conduct disorder go on to develop antisocial personality disorder." (My italics)