How hard should I try to contact a grown up child who has gone NC ?

[LeebieAnn]

My youngest daughter ( aged 30) hand she whilst not completely NC has as gone full NC. Blocked me on all forms of communication. Not sure about email but got no response to one that I sent) so snail mail is now my only hope. Worst of all she dragged her sister(32) into the
" argument" and she has changed from phoning me virtually every day for a chat to arguing and refusing to let her DD ( 8) to come visit as previously planned. I live approx two hours away from either.
I reached out to the younger one by email but got no response. Phone calls and texts go unanswered.
This all started a month ago and I cried and was really upset virtually every day and it interfered with my normal activities. Now I am finding that my heart is hardening into anger.
Shall I just accept it ?
From reading previous posts over the months, it would appear that Mumsnet appears to advise that a position of NC with a parent is a correct and righteous step to take with an elderly parent that has annoyed you.

Very obvious narcissist and I won't waste my breath explaining why.

I went NC with my mother and I wish I had done it in my 30s.

She was a mean, manipulative, narc who triangulated us all and made our lives a living hell.

When she passed away, I didn't go to her funeral nor did I want a damn thing from her estate.

It was a relief. My siblings and I get along so well now that she is gone.

@romeoonthebalcony i was determined to bow out gracefully, I have my array of opinions but now feel drawn into the need to defend/explain myself.

I should not have texted. The smile that was intended with the remark that would have shown that it was meant tongue in cheek did not convey obviously. We were planning to go with advice that the dog should get acclimatized over a few visits to accept DD as part of his pack..But on my " journey" my daughter had assured me with " don' t worry about it" only curry for dinner. I need to chill anyway etc etc." My text message obviously put her back up but never ever was I blaming her for my tardiness/ inefficiency nor would I. I might blame the dog though ( joking).
The assumption you have made about the charity shops is so far off. I educated her into the reduce, reuse recycle way of thinking in the first place. She is though hard to buy for and my oldest girl offered the gift to me for her because she, DD39, had already bought her something. Nothing to do with my not being bothered.

I believe that the Romanian family were my friends and of course children are pleased to see you if you are substitute Grannie who spends time with them. But my initial contact was with their Mum , we became friends. No hero in that .

Not sure about the " hero" bit again but you are right in that my children, and DD32 ( the one with the GD8) in particular, believes that my nature leaves me wide open to untrustworthy people. I have been let down before.

Did the dog do that to your trousers? I think your DD dodged a —poo— bullet there.

All your children are individual adults, capable of having relationships with you and youngest daughter without taking sides, so don’t read into coincidences of your dgc not coming for half term. There are a million other reasons they might not be able to come, or perhaps they just want a break from the drama. For the sake of your relationships with them and your other dc, please try and not make this eclipse everything else.

Honestly, both you and your youngest daughter sound like hard work and prone to melodrama. Regarding writing to her I would give her some space for at least a month or so before writing the letter, to give you both time to cool off. You want to make up but are clearly frustrated with her and this will come through in your letter.

op you sound like the family doormat! One dd gets a dog, then dumps it with you when she doesn’t suit. Presents only to be bought from a certain selection otherwise hissy fit will ensue; sorry is she 5? I think you need to be more confident and learn to be more clear with your personal boundaries, stop agreeing to things you don’t really want to do, rather than agreeing then getting upset about it - she wants the dog why can’t she get it from you?

I disagree that the op is naturally in the wrong and needs to atone, nc can be used as a bullying tool and a form of punishment, and if you take the situation at face value nc knowing it will cause emotional distress because someone did something you told them not to is pretty controlling to me. Everyone is allowed their own reasons to go nc, no one has to engage in interactions they don’t want, but to deny the feelings or damage to emotional well being of the recipient seems unfair.

@rvby. I should not have texted. It came across all wrong. I just tried to explain that this was to be the first of a couple of visits and really I was just sitting down exhausted and was just joking " That's it - you can keep him this time cos I am doing that again" was not meant as any kind of threat or ultimatum . If it had been with facial expression, she would have known. It really was not a tantrum just exasperation with my day but I can see now why you ( and she) would read it like that

You go on about how you were going to visit her in order to show you love her.

No I was visiting to transition the dog but thought it could be a time to talk over what it is that is bothering her. I only meant that I thought that might be a time when I could reassure her in some way.

I did not have 4 children with a violent man. He changed and had some kind of complete character and behaviour change when he had a serious secret affair . Psychology too deep to go into here. To be fair she was exposed to the awful atmosphere etc. following his manifestation during her formative years but I did not " have children with a violent man" . The Mr Hyde appeared out of the blue. I cannot possibly explain that era in this chat. We are all damaged.

I don't mean to come across as old and feeble old duck but I do walk a bit like one at the moment ! ( 67) I just am not as fit as I was before the operation and before foot problem . Cannot do hill walking any more ! and am waiting on another op to fix what went wrong with the first one . I am fully compus mentis so far.

I do appreciate your time but I don't really appreciate you apparently blaming me for my ex's behaviour and consequent damage to the children. I did my very best to protect them and, onward down the line, to keep everything that I could intact for them .

OK so you take the time to defend your having children with your ex... And in the same paragraph say that your DD was indeed exposed to very damaging things. Do you understand that the blame part isn't even important? It's the effect on dd that actually matters.

Do you think that by saying it was exdh fault she was damaged, that you somehow make it ok to label her as dramatic and unreasonable? Your youngest child is reflecting back onto you the childhood that she was forced to endure. Why not show her compassion?

You take the time to insist you can't be blamed for the family atmosphere.... And in the same paragraph say that the children were indeed damaged by it. Can you not just skip the "it's not my fault!!!" and move on to "shit, my dc probably are dealing with a lot of baggage from their childhood, I should not dump my exasperations and frustrations on them"

Do you ever take any responsibility for anything? Or do you smell blame and instantly adopt a defensive posture, no matter the impact on yourself or others...?

No I was visiting to transition the dog but thought it could be a time to talk over what it is that is bothering her. I only meant that I thought that might be a time when I could reassure her in some way.

So you intended to travel to her to transition the dog, AND to talk over what was bothering her, AND to reassure her.... and you thought "gosh I know, I'll send shit, petulant messages to the person I want to talk to and reassure... that sounds very sensible". Don't you ever stop to think before you do things? Do you just feel feelings and then dump them on other people without a care?

See this is the thing. It doesn't matter that you were exasperated. You had no right to redirect your exasperation onto a person who, by your own admission, needed reassurance from you.

What can you do today that might cause you to stop and think before you say things to your children?

@rvby What can you do today that might cause you to stop and think before you say things to your children?

Well not a lot as she has blocked me on all forms of communication barring mail. I do think that you are judging me too harshly. the breakup was awful and drawn out and I am reminded daily of how badly they are affected which is why I am as patient as I am.

We really should stick to the point of the original question . I could not see what I did wrong but I do now. So exposing myself has really helped

I think your normal OP none of us are perfect. Sometimes families aren't meant to be the best of friends.

But you’re not patient, though - are you?

Are your adult kids holding lots of things over you? Blaming you for things? Because I don't think that's very fair.

It seems to me that you are very understanding and forgiving of your shortcomings, less so of those of your children. Remember your issues have impacted your children, most probably an awful lot more than you care to accept. They most probably do carry quite a bit of anger and resentment towards you as a result. Sometimes the children (who are now adults, looking at their childhood through adult eyes, and quite often saying 'what the HELL? How did you ever think that was reasonable or okay?!) can get past that and come to an amicable relationship with their parent, sometimes it remains abrasive forever.

You can only control your half of the relationship - the communication or lack thereof. You cannot control how your adult offspring receive or perceive it. But you might want to think real hard about how it might be received through the lens of your family history (and maybe try seeing it through their lens, rather than your somewhat self-justifying lens) before you send any sort of communication.

It's a small point but one way that people with narcissistic tendencies talk is - using your example:

I am patient/I am the most patient person etc.
Whereas someone with a normal outlook might say:
I try to be patient, I'm usually patient etc.

I know this might look like nitpicking but if it's difficult for you to see what you can change, it might be helpful to look at things like this as a starting point.

Another way to look at it is that when people go NC they have genuinely spent time going through all the reasons why a situation and relationship is what it is. Trying to find logical reasons and coming up short most of the time.

When things go wrong for you, in situations and relationships, would it be true to say that your feelings lead you? i.e. if it feels true then it is true, rather than thinking, I feel bad, why is that?

I have a golden sibling. And yes my mother tells me and my other sibling that she love us all equally. The frequency with which she tells us leads us to suspect that deep down she realises that she realises little sib is the golden one. It is draining trying to be enthusiastic about the sun shining out of Goldens arse, especially as they don't have many attributes I see as admirable.

My mother does the same as you - asking for their opinion on her & my relationship, changing plans at the last moment, sending the complaints dressed as jokes etc. Any action we make is to spite her if she does not agree with it (even if it has no impact or bearing on her). Anything she approves of is because she is so wonderful - not credit is given to those making the decision. She has a revisionist version of history - always painting herself as the martyr / hero. My mother is perfectly capable of flying across the world to visit Golden but cannot manage to get across the country to mine too. Doing the delegation of birthdays for me and older sib. Any criticism is bullying.

I haven't gone NC because I could not deal with the drama - instead I don't care. I tell her nothing, I see her for about an hour a week, I don't feel slighted if she tells me about Golden because inside I am switched off. If she threatened to cut me out of her will / ban me from her funeral the bunting would go out because I would not even have to pretend any more.

You sound very similar to my mother - my recommendation is listen to your daughter, value her and her judgement. She is 30 years of age and you should treat her as such. Difficult is a difference of opinion in someone not related to you and should be no different in your children. Celebrate that you have brought up an independent woman.

OP you could be part of my family. My mother hated my grandmother, went no contact with her. Maintained one year contact with my grandfather. So cruel. A lot of people dont realise that daughters can be lunatics too..

I made a great relationship with my gran after years of no contact due to my mum projecting her crap onto me. Daughters can be major psycho lunatics too!

My grandmother made the mistake of pointing out that someone who choked her, and was unfaithful probably wasn't a good choice.

Well, this thread is a microcosm of the dysfunctional families a lot of posters seemed to have grown up in and perpetuate. The term “narcissist” is probably one of the most overused word on the internet.

If it makes you feel better, OP send both no contact daughters letters then forget about contacting them again, until they choose contact. Yes, it may hurt you but it is their choice. Don’t talk about them to their siblings. In the end, just or not, it’s their choices.

As for your Will, do what feels right to you. Reconsider if it’s still right every few years.

Build your own life, your own interests, with what makes you happy. You can’t control or change other people. You can control your reaction to them.

The reason that others are describing you as a narcissist is that you have not shown any signs whatsoever of empathy for your child. You have also been very disrespectful in your actions towards her.
Can you try to describe what a person who felt empathy might say about this situation?

If she has gone NC this is a huge deal for a child and she will have accepted by doing this that she may never see you again in the event of your future illness or death.

If you can change and learn to treat your dd with respect then at some future point a Low contact relationship might be possible if this is something you both want.

very cute dog OP

Regarding the train / dog situation, it sounds like you really didn't want to make the journey to your daughter with the dog and were short on money and energy to do so but agreed to it out of desire not to annoy your DD because your relationship was already difficult. Then it went wrong and you were angry about it but couldn't express that in an effective way so you were passive-aggressive (maybe unintentionally) and DD blew up about that as that is your communication style - as evinced here on this thread - and it cascaded for her.

She overreacted but I would imagine it was a case of 'straw that broke the camel's back' or it's also entirely possible that she is indeed difficult, either a drama queen, or someone who herself has a hard time communicating and being honest about how she feels.

There is a lot of repressed emotion going on in your family dynamic. People all angry and resentful of each other but everyone shutting down and going NC rather than opening up the lines of communication. Who knows who is to blame? Could be you, could be your ex having poisoned the family with his abuse, could be your DC have inherited difficult temperaments from both of you - but either way it sounds like you need some real life support like a counselor or therapist you can get perspective from.

As an armchair theory, I would say, again, that you developed a personality early in your life where you learned to never need anything or ask for help or express your emotions freely - my mother and a lot of women of your generation are the same - and that is what's making it hard for you to resolve this. I don't even think you would recognise this yourself because it's so engrained in you at this stage. It would be sad if you let that continue to damage your family relationships.

If you can't or don't want to work on that issue right now, for whatever reason, then I would suggest taking time to build new healthy friendships, hobbies or other interests and give your family a break. Hopefully they will check in with you once they are ready to do that.

Ivanapee I only PM'd you because I felt this post had run its course and wanted to truly know in what way I have been a manipulator.

Hilariously awful that you've been PMing individual posters off thread on such trivial pretexts.

You need to do some reading about narcissistic triangulation in order to learn more about the aspects of your behaviour that you say you just can't see. This is from wikipedia, as a starting point:

In the context of narcissism, triangulation is when the narcissist attempts to control the flow, interpretation, and nuances of communication between two separate actors or groups of actors. Ensuring communications flow through, and constantly relate back to the narcissist provides a feeling of importance. Common scenarios include a parent attempting to control communication between two children, or an emotionally abusive partner attempting to control communication between the other partner and the other partner's friends and family. A narcissistic person wants to ensure the other actors communicate through them but remain otherwise isolated.

I think what's really trashed your relationship with your two younger daughters is that they've finally been talking to each other, instead of being kept at arm's length and having private conversations ferried between them by you, like you've been doing with DD30 and the elder one.

Don't get in touch or send the letter. Go to a proper psychotherapist (not a counsellor) for long-term, open-ended therapy in order to better understand yourself and your deep-seated problems. Only breach your daughters' request for space when your therapist thinks you've got some insight into how you have reached this point.

@OnePotMeal ridiculous, huh?!

Not something I’d be gullible enough to fall for. I didn’t respond.

Ah, yes, Wikipedia. The fount of all knowledge.

Hoovering was Saturday morning / or not usually. I mean I would lose the plot after a long series of non co operation. Rarely though

But you did say you would lose your rag later on at night

Telling the truth. Not really . I used to " strop " .By the time they were teenagers , sometimes, I was doing two to three jobs to keep a roof over their heads and I have asked them to hoover through or hang washing out and would come home at 10 or 11 at night to find nothing done I would read the riot act

Does sound like you got them out of bed to tell them off.

I think from your latest update about the dog incident I can see where your children are coming from.

I bet you were never PA with your NDN but your dc ask you for something and it is turned into a huge to do.

Wikipedia's a useful resource, especially for orientation to a new subject. I could find a thousand other discussions of narcissistic parenting on the internet, some scholarly, if that's what you'd prefer, @Halo84, others anecdotal, many of which would provide moving reading - although perhaps not for the OP, who probably just wouldn't be able to see what the problem was. If she wants to read more widely, she can do some googling herself.

Your posts suggest you don't have any experience of narcissistic personality disorder, so you probably don't understand any of this, but it's all to familiar to many people on the thread.