"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi @newnameabcdefg , happy birthday 🥳

These people don't just want to love you. Or rather, they have numerous conditions attached for you to accept their "love". They are going after your children as they are easy targets, and the ultimate weapon to use against you.

You declined a family meal, but they are showing you what they think of your boundaries.

there is now a massive delivery of balloons and flowers in my hall and I don't know what to do about it. I feel horribly guilty about it, can I get rid of it?

Pop the balloons one by one and with each reinforce your boundaries in your mind. You're feeling guilty as your parents are expert in conditioning you your boundaries mean nothing to them.

You should read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward, "Childhood Disrupted" by Donna Jackson Nazakawa.

Your clear insight here is a massive strength. You have great clarity into what they are doing. You feel guilty because over years of behaviour you've become entrenched in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) triad. The outofthefog website will help you.

Finally, enjoy your birthday safe in the knowledge you know what these people are truly like.

@Firstborngill, here is the current thread. Hope you find your way here.

Is there a fb group or similar ? I need to talk but my toxic family search for me online and I need help

Hi all, sorry to burst in, but I've read the website about daughter of nc mothers and i feel sick, as it's so relatable. I'm going through tough times with dh rn and he's not here, not that I can talk to him anyway! I need to talk to someone! I've one friend nearby but she's busy today.

progestermoan, I'm not on FB so can't help you with that, sorry. Are you able to talk on here without going into any details that might "out" you?

nethunsreject, don't feel you need to apologise. The website is really helpful but it is an eye-opener and can come as a shock. You need time to process.

Thans Lily. Yes it is hard to process.
Progestemoan, that's a fantastic name

It’s too obvious and they search through anything they can personal possessions if get the chance and for anything online
I literally have no outlet for the abuse I’m going through and last week was hell

Deliberately engineering awful situations and then being overheard making dreadful plans to ruin my whole life I’m destroyed

I’m considering paying for private counselling I need someone to help me process it all

If you have the money then private therapy can be very helpful. I have had two separate bouts of therapy. Imo therapy never really ends as there's always new stuff to work through. I watch this thread but often don't have as much time as I'd like to post due to kids and exhaustion. I would like to go back into therapy in the near future once baby can be left for longer.

I don’t really it would mean making cuts elsewhere but I’m desperate

I had tried to limit contact I can only assume that led to them feeling they were losing control ? So much so that it has become hell and unbearable and they are it seems determined to destroy me and my life

had tried to limit contact I can only assume that led to them feeling they were losing control ? So much so that it has become hell and unbearable and they are it seems determined to destroy me and my life

Absolutely so, these people only care about the power and control they hold over you, your point about searching online reinforces it. Going LC/NC is a red rag to a bull and they will do everything and anything to make you question yourself. You might want to check out the outofthefog website.

And bloody amazing username, gave me a titter after 14 hours in A&E!

@progestermoan are you in work?

I just ask because I've previously been able to access counselling through my work employee assistance programme

I got help for depression, which wasn't really work related, so it might be worth looking into if applicable

I only got 4 sessions, which I think is fairly typical, but it was enough to make a difference

aaargh. Need a quick rant about my mother

She phoned me in tears because she's worried about my DB (who to be fair was always her favourite child)

I say, hey, no not heard from him, but works been busy, filling in for my boss who's on hols? and trying to get ready to go away on holiday ourselves....

she then just goes into more tears about how she's hurt her foot (again) can't get out (again) and is so lonely

when my father died myself and my two brothers all raised concerns about her being isolated, but she refuses to consider moving

I know there's not really anything anyone can do, but just struggling to deal with having to deal with a woman who was never really there for me, but now expects me and my siblings to be at her beck and call.

so now on Saturday when I'm meant to be packing and organising for going away (we'll be camping for a week) I instead have to take DD to see her to cheer her up and spend the afternoon with her.....

why do I do this to myself????

God tell me about it Closedaura, I ask myself everyday why the hell I keep bothering.

Once again my stepfather has been nasty to me behind everyone elses backs and of course everyone believes him because he is so sweet and charming as long as he is not alone with me when he shows all of his true colours.

Of course everyone thinks its me being unreasonable and nasty. i feel like filming the man and showing all of my relatives but wonder what I have to gain by it - it won't change anything.

I have a big move planned, I simply cannot live near them anymore. I'm going 300 miles away.

I moved over 100 miles away. Just had my parents stay over as they complain about not seeing the kids enough. Hanging out the window smoking like I'm 15 although did tell them (newly reformed horrendous habit) They wouldn't have the kids when we go away next summer. Baby approx 18m by that point. Here until tomorrow. Nearly over now-obligatory visit.

Another one who's quite keen to get their thoughts down on paper!

I grew up in a family with 3 sisters. DS2 is a half-sister. After a lot of reading on here and various websites, I'm starting to understand our dynamics a bit more.

DS1 was undoubtedly the golden child. When I went to medical school a few years ago, I was giving (D)M 150 per week while she oversaw taking my daughter to and from school for me, cooking for her etc. That also covered afterschool club, although she didn't need to be there because (D)M was off work. This was a HUGE financial drain on my savings and contributed to a lot of anxieties during my studies. At one stage DM would not act as a guarantor on a rental property for me, forcing me to live with her.

Fast-forward to now and DS1 is being bankrolled by DM. She receives a monthly stipend so she can remain in a job that's largely unpractical (think multiple nights away each week, very large commute to get there). DM also acted as a guarantor on her car so she can stay in said job. She also collects DS1's children and makes no demands of placing them in an after school club.

DS2 appeared to be another golden child until recently. She was always driven miles and miles to clubs so she could attend them. I was refused bus money to activities growing up, but then mocked for not being sporty. DS2 has recently broken away from DM and has gone low contact.

Growing up we were always an emotional crutch. If I spent time talking to my dad (her ex husband) at sports day she would cry and say we clearly no longer loved her. If we came back from there saying we had fun she would sit us down and ask us what we wonder would happen if one day she just died.

Another difference that carried through to adulthood is the way she treated my child vs DS1's child (and I want this to be a cautionary tale for those who feel bad for not letting their children see a toxic grandparent). When myself and my ex split, she was telling my DD that her dad would start a new family and stop loving her and refused to have him in her house to collect her etc. On occasion, she told her that nobody really wanted her there and that I might get another job elsewhere and leave forever. None of this emerged until I went NC. Those are just two examples. In contrast, DS1's children have their (alcoholic and abusive) dad welcomed into DM's home so they can maintain a relationship with him.

I'm now starting to wonder if she was a daughter of a narcissistic father. To this day, her dad speaks of how she was always odd but my uncle was fine. My uncle was handed a business on a plate and her academic accomplishments were never celebrated. When I graduated from medical school and decided that it was not for me as I was ridden with anxiety (and genuinely couldn't face a life in the NHS) they said how embarrassing it was for them. Although I am now earning a significant amount with my own business and funding a modular pilot's license, they won't acknowledge these things.

I'm not sure what I really want from this post other than to just tell people who understand. Getting it all down and putting it somewhere feels like I am lifting a little weight. I feel like I could write a sodding book sometimes. I'm now NC, but she's being very volatile with DS2. I've all but lost the relationship I had with my grandparents as a result of going NC. We're still in touch, but whereas before they'd hear me out if I needed to talk to someone, now they don't acknowledge anything I say about her.

Thanks to anyone who took the time to read this far. What an essay

Just wondering if you are the eldest daughter, SpeedbirdFoxtrot? I certainly recognise the messy, fractured family dynamics. I'm also wondering whether you feel as though you have ever had any sort of relationship with your sisters. It would be entirely understandable if you didn't. Your mother's behaviour saw to that.

What your mother said to your DD was cruel. Sadly, it's just the sort of thing my mother says and then she denies, denies, denies. If that doesn't work (you know, when there is tangible evidence like vicious little emails), she adopts her martyr persona and insists she "had to do it" and "was left with no choice". Classic victim-blaming, in other words.

It does sound as though your mother was herself the daughter of a narcissistic parent but my view on this is quite clear. You see, my mother had a crappy childhood and chose to take it out on two of her four children - defenceless children at that. As a direct result of her decision, I had a crappy childhood, as did my DSis. However, we chose NOT to take it out on anyone. We broke the cycle.

Your mother had the same choice as you. She chose the low road. You did not. All credit to you and for you and your DD

Hi @SingingLily!

Yes, I am indeed the eldest child. I feel as though I managed a relationship with them for a while, but the relationship with DS1 became very fractured in our teenage years. DS2 is much younger than me, and so I've become someone for her to lean on lately and we're getting along very well, but we were never very close as children.

And, yes, I get the martyr act quite often too! Most recently she's been driving DS2 to distraction with threats of making her lose her job (I won't reveal the job as I'm paranoid about outing) but pitches it to my grandparents as her acting like a concerned mother and that she's just a confused lady trying to do her best by her youngest

I absolutely agree with the choice element as well. I feel like I make a very conscious effort to not behave in the same way to DD. She's allowed to have opinions, I don't mind driving her to whatever the hobby of the week is, and I actually enjoy her having her friends over.

This is weird, but did you find (at first) that it took a while to understand what a normal relationship dynamic was? Even now I'm still quite impressed (and slightly baffled) by the way my partner's dad can disagree with his mum and they just sort of shrug and move onto another conversation. I assumed a full-throttle outburst followed by being forced into agreeing with a point of view was the norm until my late 20s.

Thanks for your response and for you and yours too.

Hi Speedbird I’m in my fifties and just cottoned on that the madness doesn’t have to include me in it. For years I’ve just gritted my teeth and made excuses - bad childhood, means well, two sides to every story etc. But not now. This thread made me see that I could reject the narcissism, just play no more part in it. It’s early days, and not easy but I definitely feel more optimistic about the future. I have discussed it with two very close friends, one completely understood. The other one thinks I should make peace and that family is too important. So be very clear in your own mind what YOU want, as the child of a manipulator I find it very difficult to act for myself, I’m so used to second-guessing everything so that I can keep the peace.
You sound a very hardworking kind person. You don’t have to take this world of nonsense anymore!

It's not weird at all, SpeedbirdFoxtrot. It makes complete sense. I'd always known my family was not like other families. I always knew my mother was "odd" (in fact, DH reminds me that I'd told him precisely that as a forewarning before he met her for the first time). What I hadn't realised was just how dysfunctional all of my family had become as a direct result because tiptoeing around my mother's moods and trying to anticipate/forestall her tantrums were so ingrained in all of us. Although I could - on an intellectual level - recognise a healthy relationship, I had no idea how to build one or respond to one.

DH and I lived together for two years before we married and that was entirely because it took him that long to convince me that I was safe and that I was someone who could love and be loved. My DMiL, sadly no longer with us, was just lovely to me. (In fact, my username is a tribute to her. Singing lily is the Lancastrian version of singing hinny - DMiL used to make it for me because she knew I liked it. I wasn't used to that, a mother being thoughtful). She was so proud of me and so happy to spend time with me. It just radiated from her. And there was me, so wary, waiting for the sucker punch, and baffled when it didn't happen. DH and DMiL taught me it was OK to trust but it took awhile.

I somehow knew you were the eldest daughter. You'd be the first one to reach an age when you were starting to form your own personality and identity, have your own likes and dislikes - strictly not allowed, of course. Let me guess the rest. Middle sister got a free pass partly because it was another way for your mother to inflict even more pain on you by making endless and unfair comparisons. Younger sister was not really needed because the scapegoat/golden child circle was already complete but she benefitted for a time till she started making decisions of her own.

It's ironic, isn't it? People like your mother and mine think that they are special and unique when the truth is, they are depressingly predictable.

We deserved better. We all deserve better.

SingingLily 💐🙌🏽🌟 I’m mentally standing up and cheering. We DO DESERVE BETTER! Xx

The visit is finally over. And... Breathe...partners been away on business all week so been by myself. There's so much to say and I don't want to waffle especially as I get so few chances to post.

Safe to say my set up is non traditional. Mum was young, didn't know my dad, raised within my family by my nan, mum and long term lodger who left when I was 4. One of my earliest memories is her lifting me out of my cot. I was very traumatised when she left and have vivid memories of her leaving after an argument with my grandparents. I struggle to remember my mum when I was a small kid, my only memories are of her leaving to go somewhere, to travel abroad, to go out, I don't remember stories or getting in bed and cuddling, etc. I find it very difficult watching her with my DCs. Where was this behavior for me? On one hand hate she has this 'time' for my DCs, on the other hand hate how she interacts with them and aspects of it make me feel so uneasy. DM has been with her partner since my late teens, he has 2 DCs. One is NC, one is abroad. Both quite set in their ways. Appear offended when I won let my DCs stay for any extended period but only want them on their terms, eg, won't look after them at my house whilst we go away. TBH they would struggle with two for any great deal of time. 3 year old is typical 3 Yr old but little tolerance of childlike behaviour.

3 year old out of sorts during visit. Not sure if she's picking up on my stress. Fairly certain my MGM is narcissistic, unsure if my DM has fleas but had ongoing MH issues when I was child culminating in breakdown when I was about 7. I have vivid memories of this but we don't discuss it. Very much used as her emotional crutch after her separation with first step father with whom I have NC, abandonment age 11 despite being in my life since babyhood. Left as soon as I could for uni but flunked. Just hadn't been given tools to survive and flourish, clearly my own fault though...🙄

Not Sure where this is going. Haven't had adult conversation this week, sorry, only 3 year old and baby. Notice myself saying things and cringing as I hear my DM. Hope I've had enough therapy to not repeat same mistakes. Clearly DM v damaged by MGM. Glad I've moved away, feel like I finally have the freedom to reinvent myself and be who and what I want to be without belittling or sly digs. I could go on with more specific examples but TBH just typing this is enough for the time being. In an ideal world I'd love DP to come home from trip and say they want him to transfer abroad. 11h+ flight keeps all but the most committed away!!!

Hi I have posted on here before awhile ago, it's about my Mil not a parent and sorry it's going to sound trivial and quite long. I think my Mil might be a narcissist or at the very least controlling, interfering and manipulative. She uses lots of emotional blackmail and guilt trips to try to get what she wants, even getting others in the family to guilt trip us. Bribary is also common practice. She will use lots of silent treatment if she doesn't get her way. She treats dh like a child and has an opinion on everything we do (how and where I give birth, how much to spend on engagement ring or birthday gifts, dh needs to go on a diet, I need to wear makeup, how much to donate at our dc christening, how I spend my own disposable income). And her opinion is always the right one, she will just wear you down (hard to describe) until you see she is correct. She wants to know about everything we are doing, even my private medical matters, and she will divulge other people's very personal information they would not want others to know. I have become the black sheep of their family, and constantly made to feel like im the unreasonable one, like when I got pregnant their whole family gave me the silent treatment because mil did not want us to have children.

I was wisely given the advice of using the grey rock techniques to share as little as possible with her. I was doing that for months but she has this way, it's hard to explain to make you lower your guard and share information she can use against you. She recently came around to see the dc when dh wasn't in. So she started sharing her childhood experiences with me telling me how her parents where both narcissists who had little interest in her and never pushed her etc. Then went on to tell me her father beat her so much her ribs were broken. This is why she is so involved in her children's lives she said. So I believed her and felt sorry for her and let my grey rock defences down and shared more than I should have. Things she can use against me or try to lower my defences in the future. So I asked my husband about his grandfather beating mil as a child and he knows nothing about it. He said "She never told me this".
So now I'm thinking was she lieing wasn't she? Was this just a trick to get me to share more information than I should. I'm so stupid I feel like crying. Is this a thing narcissists use, a sob story like this? I was using the grey rock replies and going low contact and it was working well, and now I have shared more than I should. She will use this in future I'm sure and now don't know what do to. Thanks if anyone read this and replies

Hi I am new to these threads but not to this subject ...I've been lurking for a while, @Allthe I don't think these issue sound trivial at all, she sounds like an expert manipulator, on the face of it not as dangerous as the overtly outrageous types but ultimately the insidiousness is very hard to combat.
It's awful the way they get their tentacles in.
I understand why you feel humiliated and violated, you can get back on track and you can take back control.

I have found that writing things down and making notes after conversations and encounters is quite helpful but then that means you have to keep a kind of dossier on a person which gets rather time consuming 🤦‍♀️
The people with more experience will be along to give advice soon😊