"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@SingingLily making my reaction the problem is exactly what they do and I hadn’t really thought of it like that, Thankyou!

I won’t be allowing them here, I have made my mind up about that. I am waiting to start a new treatment for my illness and right now am feeling very ill which is definitely not helping me deal with this.

I’ve done everything I can to be the complete opposite of my DPS and have done my best to shield DD from them. She was very upset over her graduation and DM harassed DD over me going no contact, DD was upset that her day was ruined by them (I should have known they would) and she says she looks back on the day with sadness. So do I. I made contact to get DM off my DD back. DD said at the weekend she controls contact, sees them when she wants to under her terms, I’m proud of her. I made sure she has the confidence to say no.

"@AttilaTheMeerkat my DD thinks it’s my DF clumsy attempt at reconciliation. He has had lots of chances to apologise DM says he doesn’t know how too (she defends him all the time). What I want is for once they say sorry, acknowledge how they made me feel (and DD)."

You need to ultimately let go of all hope that your parents are going to apologise and or otherwise say sorry because they will never do so. Its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them this way. You are also going to have to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Unfortunately your DD is wrong; its your father's attempt at further manipulation along with gaslighting you into the bargain. The best thing you can all for yourselves as a family unit going forward is for the three of you to have nothing to do at all with your parents. Your man and daughter should support you in this and not unwittingly support your parents or act as their flying monkeys.

I would also concur fully with SingingLilys comments too.

DD said at the weekend she controls contact, sees them when she wants to under her terms, I’m proud of her. I made sure she has the confidence to say no.

Quite right too, Tara! And you are simply doing the same. I'm glad you've come to this decision and hope it's taken the weight off your shoulders. Good luck with your forthcoming treatment. Let's hope it makes all the difference.

Well done Mrs Russell but ideally her keyworker should not be really bothering you at all. I would actually be telling this person now not to contact you again however as you are done with your mother.

MrsRussell, good for you too for doing exactly what was needed. You can't change her. She doesn't want to change. You don't have to pay the price for her choices and nor should you. Good luck in the coming days.

I am so worried that DH and I, despite being aware that our respective families are not emotionally healthy (to say the least) are continuing to pass on that legacy down to the next generation. I also know that being consumed with these thoughts isn't helping either!

I look back on all the times that I was grumpier and had less patience that I should've with my own DC (and DH) (usually because I was drained by the behaviour of our respective families and was ruminating on it). The decision (which I now fully appreciate was the right one for us) to have just one DC due to the sibling triangulation and splitting on DH's side of the family (he was adamant having a sibling was a bad thing) and the lack of support (opposite in fact) from both sides. The 'ticks' that DH and I have picked up from our respective families that I have become more aware of, and still have despite that awareness and fighting against them.

I guess its just really hit me that despite the changes (my violent inconsistent dad is now dead - my mum died when I was a young child; much stronger boundaries with DH's family naturally resulting in very low contact; lots of counselling...) we're still being weighed down by this and that is very much down to me/us.

I know I'm rambling - sorry! Maybe I need to go back into counselling - just not sure how it will help now though. I don't feel the need to talk about the damage done over years by our parents any more or need validation that it was, in fact, toxic, abusive, nasty, cruel etc. I've sat with those emotions, grieved...yet still! I feel like I need actual strategies. Does any of this makes sense?

Roent

I thought of "fleas" (not the creature) when I read your post.

This excerpt from out of the FOG re fleas may be of some use to you here:-

outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/fleas

I've been following this thread with interest for a couple of months now. Read back through previous years, etc. @Roent, I completely can relate to what your saying. I can find myself very fretful at times that I am repeating the same mistakes. I'd like to go back into therapy now I've realised my DM had/has narcissistic tendencies but just not practical at the moment. I have a small baby (under 1 year) and a preschooler but am. Glad we now have some distance as we have just moved a drive away from everyone. The physical distance is helping me to think a lot clearer. I no longer dread unannounced visits or spur of the moment phone calls to see if I'm in. I only. Hope that my insight will help me to repair any ruptures with my kids when I inevitably make mistakes and recent to learned behaviours. Much more to say but not sure where to start. Older one is at preschool at the moment and baby sleeping so really must take advantage and do jobs

Thank you AttilaTheMeerkat! Fleas not ticks - yes! I guess being conscious of it is the first step. DH thinks I'm overly aware and have unrealistic standards but we differ on that. I was fortunate enough to be taken under the wing of a lovely emotionally healthy and very loving family when my mother died who I am still close to now (although unfortunately don't live close to - I dream of moving back there) - so I've seen first hand and at length how emotionally healthy families work (something I don't think he has...) and will forever be grateful to them for their love and continued friendship.

Yes, it is difficult to know where to start WrapTrap. The amount of posts I've started on this thread over the last four years but never posted...It is amazing what a difference not being on edge that they can could pop round at any moment makes - sound like a good move for you.

My DC is now a young teen, so many years have been wasted on this already. I wish we had started our family living close to my home town (where lovely ex neighbour family live) rather than DH's hometown but I had no idea of the implications at all. I am definitely at the point where I need to take full ownership of this though and stop wistfully thinking what if...and berating myself. I am confident DH and I are much better parents than we had ourselves even if we've only made it to barely average, so far.

Hello, I'm venturing onto this thread in search of advice please. DH has been hospitalised with nervous exhaustion and he's starting to face up to a traumatic past. This includes being physically and emotionally abused by his father, my PiL. I knew there was a difficult history but I didn't know the extent of it (I still don't, just more than I did before this). His sister has had a life of mh problems due to the abuse she received. They both still see MIL and PiL regularly. It's likely DH has a long road of recovery ahead.

I'm wondering how best to support DH, and how on earth I face PIL who seems oblivious to the problems of the past and seems to try hard with our toddler.

LittleAndOften -Ultimately, I think the only way to truly move forward to something like this is to move away from the abusers and go NC. I'm no expert though and I've done many, many things wrong on this journey. I didn't actually do that I can just now think that it is the only way.

I only truly realised what a continued draining experience still being in contact with my father was over a year after he died. When I realised that I was healing properly, looking after myself etc. It was subtle but now a few years later the difference is fairly dramatic on reflection - and this was after 25 years of living at least 2 hrs away and being in low- very low contact.

I did the classic and unwittingly married someone else from a dysfunctional background (but looked very normal on the outside) - different MO but very damaging too. I did absolutely the wrong thing to start with and upped the low contact DH had with them - tried to play happy families as I so desperately wanted one and wanted that for DC too. I had no idea.

In your position now I would definitely not be enabling a relationship between your DC and them - they are highly unlikely to be good GP in the long run, even if they 'play' the role when the DC are young. I would also just be there for your DH if he wants to talk but avoid forcing the issue (I wouldn't mention the PIL at all unless he does), avoid giving your PIL any kind of supply (do grey rock if you have to be around them). Help DH to see and ultimately escape the FOG when the opportunity arises. Seek counselling yourself if you can.

@Roent thank you for your reply. PILs have always followed us wherever we've moved so nc is not really on the cards. I let DH lead on contact, he's close to MIL but as a couple PILs really despise each other. They've been together since their teen pregnancy and are now in their 70s and completely co-dependent. Both are in poor health.

I agree that as ds gets older the cracks will probably start to show with Pil's grandparenting. DH is starting therapy next week so hopefully something concrete comes out of it. Facing up to his dad for the first time in his life will change everything.

One positive of this breakdown is that DH is really opening up to me.

@Roent If you’re unhappy with the way things are and you’re wanting to change without the focus on looking back maybe life coaching/personal development is the answer.

For self help books that don’t focus on the past, I like ‘Feel the fear and do it anyway’.

It sounds like when you ruminate/reflect that you’re not totally in ‘control’, a bit like going down the rabbit hole, one peep and whoosh. Journaling helps with this, it forces you to slow down your thoughts as you can only get them out as quick as you can write, and it gets those busy thoughts out of your mind and placed somewhere for safe keeping.

In my experience, looking back, I ruminated so much because I was very hurt and angry. I had no outlet for my anger and I was so angry and consumed by it that it was as though I kept needing to re-live the pain so I wouldn’t forget how much they’d hurt me. I don’t know how it works but writing the stuff down, I’ve not forgot but it was like the anger left me.

That's good news about your husband opening up more to you now LittleandOften.

Thank you NoraButty - yes, that sounds like the right direction. My counsellor suggesting keeping a journal, which I did (sporadically shredding as she suggested letting it all just spew out and not taking the time to reflect whether it was completely fair or accurate or nice - just what came). I'll pick that up a bit more and have a look at some self help books of that nature (I already have a couple, on my kindle, unread!).

In some ways I feel I made a breakthrough this weekend - had a 'triggering' incident with DH on Friday night (do do with alcohol use disorder and the fallout) but I, initially (Saturday), reacted in a much calmer, more emotionally mature way. I feel some irritation today but still responding to that differently. I hope potentially it was a turning point for him too. It seems to be. I've now dropped the last on my enabling behaviour so that is a step in the right direction anyway.

In addition I decided that DS was now old enough to be aware of some it it (I'm sure he already was but I felt it had to be more out in the open) and that lead to a wider discussion/opening of communication channels about mental health, his feeling etc. I said that we were trying to be better parents and he was surprised by that and said he thought we were very good parents and better than most of his friends' parents. Which was nice to hear but that won't make me rest of my laurels as he also thinks that his paternal grandparents are great...(he has no idea of the emotional abuse that DH has been put through or why we see so little of them now).

I second what NoraButty has said.

I also kept a journal. Every time a memory - a painful and upsetting memory - bubbled up to the surface of my mind, I would scribble it down in my journal. Quite deliberately, I made no attempt to put my written thoughts into any sort of order. I just wrote them down as they appeared in my head: all the anger and hurt and bewilderment that my "child self" had felt at the time. It helped to calm my mind somehow and days later, when I felt more in control (when the "adult me" was back in charge), I'd go back and read what I'd written, and reflect on it. It really helped.

After I went NC, if I had a wobble, I'd go back and read my journal. It reminded me of all the reasons why NC was the right decision for me and it strengthened my resolve to keep going.

Roent, you have had some great advice here already. I had really bad 'fleas'. My logic was so twisted. My dad behaved appallingly and everyone adored him and did what he said and clustered around him. So I grew up not wanting to be the doormat my mother was and behaved like he did - temperamental and demanding and bewildered when people thought I was a nightmare. I now realise that lots of people must have steered clear of my dad. He was loathed at work, I know so he must have gathered a certain type of meek person around him who was dazzled by his insistence at his own genius and the drama of his life.

It took me years and years to realise that wasn't even who I was. I am actually a very calm and even person. "Feel the Fear' was an incredibly helpful book.And this is an incredibly helpful thread.

For parenting, I strongly recommend 'Positive Parenting' by Jane Nelson. I used that as my bible on how to raise my DC because my own childhood was so useless as a guideline, except in a couple of aspects. I have included the good stuff from my childhood into my DCs life, but for their emotional wellbeing and our day to day life, I follow Positive Parenting as gospel. Because it's kind and respectful and most important of all, it treats children's emotions as valid.

Thank you SingingLily and growlingbear

Just been reminded that I made a spreadsheet (several years ago) of all the incidents (I could remember) - in a hope to dump them there. I deleted it as I decided it didn't help...I think it was too ordered.

I read 'feel the fear and do it anyway' years ago - I think a friend lent it to me. All I can remember is the title now so it is definitely time to read it again. I've just downloaded that and 'positive parenting' to my kindle. Productive reading later!

In a weird, interminable, twist of fate I've received an appointment to see a psychiatrist (current meds doing nothing, and GP wants to pull me off diazepam). The senior doctor I'm going to be seeing is the same that was mother's consultant for about 10 years, so I'm stressing he's going to make the connection we're related, if he hasn't already, and pre-judge me. It's taken me a very long time to agree to go back to therapy but self-harm has ramped up the past 18 months and I've no desire to wind up dead. I'm fully prepared to roll in, "I'm Steve, X's son. You know, X the psychotic narc bitch, and watch his reaction". He stopped being mothers consultant approx a year ago (probably fucked off with the bigoted abusive bile she liked to hurl at him).

Steve, I doubt very much whether the senior psychiatrist would so much as flicker,an eyelid if you did 🙂. He will have seen it all and heard it all over the years and nothing much would surprise him now. In any case, he will strictly compartmentalise every patient so that he sees them very much as individuals and will treat them very much as individuals. No pre-judgement whatsoever. He wouldn't still be doing this job otherwise, would he?

Good to see that your sense of humour is still very much intact. May it be ever so. And even better to know that you have finally agreed to go back to therapy. You can't stay as you are, you know that, and you know you can't move forward without a bit of help. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.

What SingingLily wrote in its entirety. I doubt that you would be at all prejudged by him; these people are professionals and have codes of conduct and ethics to follow.

I hope these sessions go well for you .

What happened to you as well Steve is not your fault. If blame is to be apportioned here it is the fault solely of those who chose to abuse you.

Of course, he could always run off screaming "not another one". While I chase him in my wheelchair.

I think the key change recently for me is realising that I was never the problem, and the ghosts that trail me are not of my making. In some absurd way the self-harm and you amazing people have shown me that I can be in control, and that includes contact with the family and how much I let their behaviour affect me.

A good friend inferred I have the right to grieve, and mourn, my childhood. But I'll be fucked if these people will exert control over me again. Their grip is loosening.

The demons still come, and I expect I'll never get rid completely, but just being at peace will be blissful. I often wonder what my life would be like now if I hadn't stumbled onto these threads a few years ago. I genuinely think I'd have committed suicide. So, thank you 😊

Can I talk to someone? I've been LC with my parents for several months. Controlling manipulative behaviour, ignoring boundaries and going after my kids in particular. It's my birthday, having already turned down a family meal (why yes I'd love my birthday to be an opportunity to get to grab at my kids) there is now a massive delivery of balloons and flowers in my hall and I don't know what to do about it. I feel horribly guilty about it, can I get rid of it? is it horribly wasteful? I feel like shit cos they just want to love me, but it feels so manipulative to send something so big and noticeable, the kids would love to play with balloons but at the same time the kids would love to play with the balloons and ask who they're from and be reminded of their granparenrs. can someone just tell me what to do with it?

I've dropped the fuckers off at the charity shop and am now feeling a lot calmer

abcdefg

Glad to read you are feeling calmer.

That was an excellent idea to dispose of it in the way you did (i.e through a charity shop). These items as well should not be acknowledged in any way by yourself to them.

What your parents are trying to do here is hoover you back into their dysfunctional world. Many hooverers have traits of borderline, narcissistic, antisocial or histrionic personality disorders. Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself and can take this form too.

Such an action is NOT a sign that the abusive person loves the survivor or that he/she can change and suddenly develop reciprocity, authentically own responsibility for mistakes, and consistently show emotional maturity. The analogy of a vampire sinking fangs into the jugular vein works here. The abusive person may home in on the target’s vulnerabilities (wanting to be accepted, loved, attractive, etc.) and try to hook that person back into another abuse cycle, solely for the benefit of soothing the abusive person’s ego—no more, no less.
It’s advisable for a survivor to continue with no contact and block the abusive person from email, text, phone, and any other form of communication. In most circumstances, assuming the survivor does not reengage, eventually the “hoovering” will stop.

I would consider having no contact at all with such people now; low contact anyway often leads to no contact.