"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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August 2013
December 2013
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July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
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March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Whosorrynow
Thanks for the reply. I do feel humiliated since I was stupid enough to tell her personal information. I can't believe I was silly enough to believe her and felt sorry for her, I thought maybe she wanted to change and connect or something. Who would lie about something like that to try to manipulate others. What if she tries this again or uses the personal childhood experiences I told her somehow. Not sure how to make sure this doesn't happen in the future and it feels like I'm back at square one with going low contact. I can't get dh on board, so for the past few months the grey rock replies were working. Dh will complain if we don't stay at her house especially for the holidays or make her feel welcome when she visits if I hide upstairs. Like last Christmas time while staying at her house for a few days I went to go wash the baby bottles in her kitchen, dh stayed with dc upstairs and mil used the opportunity to get me on my own. She just has this way if getting in your head. It's hard to explain. I think she is an expert manipulator.
Good idea about keeping a dosier, I have recently started keeping brief notes of events now, it makes me feel a bit crazy but if I don't it will later be denied that it even happened or I'm made to feel it was my fault.

The trouble is allthe if your DH doesn’t want to see what’s happening you’re very vulnerable. It’s so hard to keep your boundaries if you’re on your own in the situation. Please don’t feel bad for sharing your past, narcissists are expert manipulators whereas you were just reacting to what you saw as a bit of vulnerability. She’ll deny all knowledge of her part of the conversation if it gets brought up again I would predict.

You're not silly you are a decent kind normal person and as such you are no match for a devious amoral manipulator, you need to cultivate special powers ⚡
It might be possible to analyse the conversations and pinpoint exactly what she does and how she gets in your head, or maybe do something, have some kind of ritual to train your unconscious mind to block her out, burn some photos of her and scatter the ashes out to sea to symbolise that she is now dead to you and you do not have to respond to her.
Wear a protective amulet, I'm not advocating 'woo' here, more training the unconscious mind

Also might be worth thinking about the fact that by not supporting you your DH is enabling her. I would concentrate on him, he needs to wise up. You can’t change her.

I can picture this woman as a kind of jellyfish creature who has all of her tentacles thoroughly wrapped around and through your husband
Now...how to neutralising the creature??

can you think about exactly what happens when you lower your guard, what she says or does, how she makes you feel, what happens in your mind?

@Herocomplex I'm very early in the process too. Well, about nine months in. I did consider cutting her out when I was in my early twenties but never managed it. I wrote everything down and then bailed and deleted my letter from my computer. I too am a HUGE second-guesser. I'm trying to unpick doubting myself over everyday things, so I'm considering counselling. Thank you for your kind words, you seem lovely.

@Herocomplex
Thanks for reply. Getting dh on board seems like an impossible task. He reaction is either digging his head in the sand, that's just the way she is. She just cares about her family. Or getting annoyed I'm talking about his mother again, why can't I make more of an effort. Or saying that happened ages ago why are you bringing that up when he wants proof/ example of her behaviour. Or denial all together. I have started to get him to share less I think, but that has taken many years to get him to stop sharing things like private medical matters.

@Whosorrynow
Thanks. Its hard for me in the moment because I'm a very social anxious person which mil knows and no doubt uses to her advantage. Grey rocking over texts and emails is easy for me. In person is a little more difficult but I'm improving and I find it hard to confront people in person and call them up on their behaviour or get them to stop. I'm trying to improve on that. I think she tries to make me feel like she is on my side perhaps, make herself look like a victim so I feel guilty perhaps and let my guard down. She says things like I just want to help, I care etc. Then I think maybe she just wants to help or the other day I felt sorry for her. Think I thought sharing and talking would improve the relationship and her behaviour or I was wrong about her. Because dh thinks her behaviour is fine and his siblings treat me like a black sheep I think maybe I'm in the wrong sometimes and makes me doubt alot. I'm going to try to be more aware in the future.

remember that when she says she wants to help she really means she wants to help herself
when she says she cares what she means is she cares about everything that benefits her

@Whosorrynow
Thanks I'll have to keep saying that to myself before I see her. And I think your suggestion of writing things down and making notes after conversations and encounters will help with me doubting myself or others trying to make me doubt myself or events.

every time she does something to help you, everytime she does or says something nice this is done to make you feel obligated towards her, everything is about drawing you in, tightening her grip, when she's being nice to you she's doing it for her own benefit

allthe as I’m sure you’ve seen from all the other posters with NPD relatives you cannot manage them with sense or reason, it just doesn’t work. You can collect as much evidence as you want, it’s meaningless. The bare facts are she won’t change, your DH doesn’t see the problem and you are powerless as things are. Read the books recommended, look at the websites and decide your own future. Things can change for you and your DC’s.
I’ve had years of dreading phone calls, family events and visits, thinking if I was accommodating enough, receptive enough, accepting enough that they’d be ‘normal’ with me.
Now I realise I just don’t have to do that anymore and I can concentrate on all the people who love me as I am, and respect my boundaries.

I've come to realize that I've been waiting 42 years for an apology that's never going to be forthcoming.
I was six when my parents got divorced. Nine when my mum got together with my stepfather who was abusive. Eleven(?) when my dad moved away, putting career over his daughters even though he stayed in touch/paid maintenance. I feel like I was scapegoated a lot of the time.
I have had sporadic contact in recent years but both have the ability to make me feel like a 6 year old again in one conversation. 'My anger is unhealthy, it is negative energy, why am I bringing up ancient history, I have to respect my mum, she did her best etc etc'
My mum was too weak to stand up to my stepfather and enabled him so you know what, no I don't have to respect that actually.
I am so tired of being tired.
Thank you for listening x

Speedbird kudos to you, it’s very tough. Counselling is worth exploring, especially if it helps you find out who you are and what you want out of life. For years I was not really sure about anything, so used to trying to do the right thing (which was never enough) that I had no idea about what I really wanted.
I would really stress though, please find someone who understands NPD/NC family relationships so you can work on the things in the right way, not with a view to healing family relationships that have already taken too much of your headspace.

Much strength to all of you in the waking up bit of getting to grips with a narcissist. I'm somewhere at the other end. My narcissist f is visiting and tomorrow I'm resolved to put an end to what these tortuous visits. I'm having that awful flash of insight where I can see him as someone horribly damaged rather than just as someone who inflicts damage. I dont think he has any other way of relating to people than this bizarre controlling self absorbed thing he does. Hes come laden with gifts so I feel pretty shit about the conversation I'm going to initiate tomorrow. But the gifts are like some performance to himself about how generous and loving a parent he is. They are nice gifts but no substitute for actual interest or concern for me and my family. They make me feel gross. Like I'm horrid and ungrateful. But in all honesty it's a cheap way out of actually asking a few questions, showing any interest in what we do anything really. My f cant do that. The only conversation he can hold is where he holds forth as the fount of all knowledge on a topic. I cant do it anymore. Tragic really but finally enough. I'm not looking forward to it but the main feeling I have at the thought of it is relief.

I hope you get through the day last, let us know how it went x

@lasttimeround I can relate mine is similar, he's a very mild-mannered quiet person but I'm seeing now how subtly controlling he is, he is completely indifferent to any suffering of mine I have recently had some very traumatic issues to deal with and was totally blindsided by his mocking and cruel reaction to my pain, and then I started joining the dots and seeing the connection with earlier things.
Everything is connected to his pride and the need to maintain a certain image, to be seen as occupying the moral high ground, his standing as a person must be protected at all costs and anyone who threatens to taint his good name is automatically thrown under the bus.
I've tried to keep him at arm's length because he always made me feel uncomfortable, but he insists on visiting me even though I clearly don't want his company it's hard to explain, but I feel now as if it's just a case of him keeping tabs on me, as if I belong to him and he has a right of access to me and he is entitled to force me to honour his presence.

Good luck lasttimearound. I hope you get through it ok.
I realised recently that it isn't normal for me to go over for a family visit and cry all the way home even thought they were nice to me on that particular occasion.
Every time I see them or go into their house I am upset and cannot cope.
They never visit me, I am always expected to drive an hour and a half to go there.
I've decided to deal with it by selling up and moving away. I'm going cross country in order to try and get my life back. I'm off to somewhere I've always loved, I feel terrified by the upheaval but I need to go.
It would be a 4-5 hour drive to see them so visits will be extremely few, once a year at most. I have told them this. They know I am partially disabled and won't be able to do the drive more than that.
I didn't want to go NC as I am hoping my siblings will one day wake up and realise how toxic the family is. But this is the next best thing.
I have lots of lovely friends where I am going so I won't be lonely.

@rageagainstthevendingmachine

I am in exactly the same position, you could actually be me. Angry abusive stepfather/weak mother. Such a toxic combination.

Power to you @madcat⚡
Over time maybe you could claim that disability issues make it difficult to drive or you can't afford it or whatever and suggest an occasional Skype call instead?

Absolutely ulterego I couldn't possibly drive that far with my disability.
Yet always the guilt always the thinking is it me?
But then they could visit but never have...why?
I keep making lists to remind myself I have nothing to be guilty about, that I haven't done anything other than expecting to be loved and treated the same as my siblings.
Over time they make you feel you are going mad.
I keep going back to my late in life graduation. I worked throughout my degree to manage to pay for it every evening, every weekend. No help from anyone. Graduated really well and my parents very grudgingly came to my graduation. Didn't show any emotion, didn't take any pictures, left as soon as they could. To this day I have no pictures of it as I couldn't afford an official photo.
They paid for my siblings to go to university, made sure they didn't have to work and bought them actual houses to live in while they did their degrees so they didn't have to live in student digs, paid for all the official photos and were jumping up and down with excitement during the ceremony taking loads of pictures, all went out for big celebrations afterwards.
I didn't feel like mine was a celebration, I felt I'd inconvenienced them by asking them to come.
This was my life and how it was on every single occasion.
Obscene stack of presents under the tree for my siblings, one or two things for me at xmas. And so on and so forth. Yet I'm still feeling guilty - what's with that?

madcat go back to the outofthefog website. You’ll never make sense of what happened because there’s no sense to be made. It wasn’t fair then, it isn’t fair now and it won’t ever be. Hope your move goes well, sounds very positive!

I am so tired of being tired.

It's exhausting, isn't it, RageAgainstTheVendingMachine? When you spend days and hours and weeks dreading a family get-together, when you spend about the same amount of time getting over a family get-together, when you are sick of having to mentally filter and check and recheck your words in an effort to prevent someone from spotting an opportunity (any opportunity) to take offence, when you have to battle against being intentionally misunderstood, and the list goes on. But it's what happens when it's your job within the family to be the receptacle for all of their dissatisfaction and discontent and anger and malice. They can parcel it all up and dump it all on you.

Toomuchtooold often says you don't have to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. She's right.

Oh madcat my heart aches for you. I recognise that black sheep treatment so much. And the explanations for it go on and on. Or feeling that you've totally stepped unforgivable out of line for asking for an explanation as to why you get treated so badly. Or you bend yourself out of shape explaining to yourself why you deserve yet another kicking.
Read about it. It's such a relief when it finally clicks that it was never about you. It's about a role you fulfill in a dysfunctional family dynamic. And that once you start saying no you that role in your family, at the very least you'll find you say no to it elsewhere too and you finally start to make real loving social connections. And stop attracting the same abusive behaviour wherever you go cos they can freaking sniff you out the abusers. It's taken years but I'm happier than I ever thought possible now.

when you are sick of having to mentally filter and check and recheck your words in an effort to prevent someone from spotting an opportunity (any opportunity) to take offence, when you have to battle against being intentionally misunderstood

This.
The truth of the matter is that I am already partially estranged from/NC with my family as a result of being abroad, family feuds that I wasn't part of originally and because I have not been in touch very often over the last couple of years (most of the non contact has been down to me not wanting to discuss life after being accused of whingeing on the phone so I just stopped calling). When I have disclosed hurt or fear or shown any vulnerability/weakness/sign that I am unhappy, I am at some point sooner or later castigated for it. One family member I thought was living vicariously and so I chose only to ring when I was happy as my phone calls seemed to be judged on merit - whether I was the 'old' rage or not. As I am somewhat unhappy right now I did not ring often.
I just sometimes felt like a dog at Crufts being judged (Scrubs reference ) or the Knight's Tale - being measured, judged and always found wanting.