"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks singing it’s like being ambushed! I had a letter from them last week that I opened, read one line of, thought ‘what on earth am I wasting my time on this for’ and shoved in a drawer, I need to get rid of it. I think trying to see it as the nonsense that it is is very useful, but it doesn’t entirely take away the power it holds.
Keep going, all the best from a fellow traveller xx

Hi all. I posted this in another thread and I'm still processing it. Feel really upset because I don't know where to go from here.

I think I might need to cut contact with my mum. I invited her over for lunch and drinks at ours. My brothers came, one with a girlfriend I hadn't met before and my stepdad and gran. We made lunch for everyone, made sure everyone had plenty of wine, beer, Cider, gin and soft drinks. My mum poured herself large glasses of gin and got aggressively drunk. She was obviously looking to start an argument and started questioning me about why I still talk to my aunty that she's fallen out with. I changed the subject but she kept pushing. I said to my stepdad 'I think mum is wanting an argument but I just want to have a nice day.'
She overheard and said to me in front of everyone 'i don't know why you are siding with him, he used to say you smelled everytime you walked past when you were 13.'
I calmly said to her that I possibly did smell, lily certainly does sometimes and as a mother it would have been her job to make sure I kept myself clean. I said that as I am now 38 years old, I wasn't sure why she was saying this at a party where she had enjoyed my hospitality.
She went outside and burst into tears and said she didn't know what she had done wrong.
My stepdad said that she drove off in her car when they got home. She was very drunk. It's not the first time.😡

Thanks singing

Yes it is rather embarrassing isn't when the outbursts are in public view. Then it's 'did you see the way they looked at me. I can raise my voice if I want to'
She has tried to make contact texting about everyday stuff, I have just ignored them. I'm still not ready to talk to her yet.

Struggling with myself a bit at the moment. I keep looking up details of therapists to pass on to my DF, and thinking of strategies to move forward. I think it was Fathers Day, and realising that ‘days’ are going to be challenging because I’ll be actively doing something by not acknowledging it. So not being the good girl by ringing them, and sending cards.
My DF sent a text saying he doesn’t know what’s happening, ‘deplores’ the situation and that my DM is ‘out of control’. He’s just enabling again isn’t he?

Herocomplex

Yes he is enabling. Women like your mother cannot do relationships and always but always need a willing enabler to help them. He has also failed you here as well as your mother, he has failed to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviours.

Re your comment:-
"I keep looking up details of therapists to pass on to my DF, and thinking of strategies to move forward

I would not bother doing this because he really does not want to know. Thinking of strategies for your own self, not for him, to move forward is a good idea.

Thanks Attila, the trouble is it’s one thing knowing it objectively, and another thing when your brain keeps going back to the ‘fix it’ behaviour.
I can’t say how much this thread helps, it’s like a sanity check. I’m very grateful for the handholding and wise words.

Fixing it is our default setting, Herocomplex, because we've all been trained from birth to manage our parents' moods and shield them from the consequences of their own appalling words and behaviour. Keep fighting the urge. It does get easier over time (promise!) but in the meantime, be kind to yourself. 💐

Thanks singing, that’s really nice of you. I hope things are ok for you at the moment x

Hi everyone

Hope this is ok to post, I have no other support really and feel like my situation is eating me up inside.

I’m 20 years old, 21 in two months and I’ve had almost no contact with my mother in 4 years. From when I was about 8 years old she became emotionally abusive and manipulative.

Me and my dad were blamed and shouted at for everything, even things from her child hood. She didn’t work so was always at home, refused to do hardly anything round the house. She would quite often ignore me for several weeks at a time from when I was around the age of 8/9. I remember treading on egg shells never knowing whether she was going to shout at me, ignore me or be ok. I never knew whether I was coming or going.

When she threw my dad out when I was 14 after I attempted suicide, (she blamed him, he was an alcoholic due to this situation but all I wanted was to get away from her) she became worse. Everything was then directed at me, I tried to spend as little time at home as possible but the time I did spend was again mostly being ignored, blamed and shouted at for multiple hours a day. I was a shitty teenager and I did drink and go out at all hours but I was also traumatised.

She cut her own mother off and all of my other family when I was 8/9 aswell and tried to force me to do the same but I refused. She clearly suffers with mental illness but refused to admit it or seek treatment despite me even getting the GP out for a home visit when I was 16.

So now to the current situation, I have a one year old baby that I haven’t told her about. I think she knows as she text my dad to ask whether I’d had a baby to which he didn’t respond. She has no way of contacting me, she doesn’t know my address and I’ve changed my phone number.

Lately I have been feeling so so guilty and I feel as if it’s consuming most of my thoughts. I know that she is living alone in the same house that she once shared with her husband and daughter. When I left almost everything was broken or so run down, cooker barely worked, sofa was broken etc and I just know she wouldn’t have fixed anything, nor would she have the finances as she hasn’t worked in way over 20 years and is surviving on benefits.

She has no family or friends, as far as I’m aware she is not friendly with the neighbours so her entire existence is solitary, the last time I was in contact with her two years ago she told me her computer had broken. That was the only way really of her having contact with the outside world. I can’t imagine living like that, no one to talk to or laugh with. I keep wondering whether she’s eating ok, whether she’s even smiled or laughed since she’s been on her own. She has spent every birthday and Christmas on her own since I left. I can’t imagine how that must feel and every Christmas she is all I think about, I hate Christmas myself now because it upsets me so much. I feel an incredible sense of guilt like her situation is all my fault for leaving her there.

I’m so torn as I have my own child now who she doesn’t even know about and I can’t subject him to what I went through as I’ve ended up with BPD and such severe social anxiety I struggle to have relationships with anyone, let alone go out. But on the other hand I think about my mother and how she could literally die there, alone and no one would know about it for god knows how long. This whole situation is so so sad. I wish she could go out and find friends or a partner and move on with her life but I know until she deals with her mental illness (which she won’t) that she can’t move on... she is 61 by the way.

I’m sorry for the long post but I really need some support. I’ve been keeping this to myself for years and I feel like I’m going to explode.

Hello Meanjellybean - I hope you feel a bit better for getting that lot off your chest!
You should feel hugely proud of yourself for turning out to be such a nice caring person and good mum, after having such a shitty childhood.
Your mother could have had a happy life and a loving family - it was her own choice to refuse treatment and drive everyone away.
Yes it’s sad how she’s ended up, but she is the architect of her own misfortune.
It is not your job to fix her, and she probably can’t be fixed.
Please don’t waste a moment on feeling misplaced guilt about her situation. If you made contact and got involved, you would be sucked straight back into the toxic dynamic you so wisely left behind.
Concentrate on being a better mum than you had - break the cycle of bad parenting, so your own DC have normal happy childhoods. And keep them well away from toxic granny!
If you still feel an urge to “do something” about your mother, why not simply put her in your prayers - hand her over to God, as being beyond your ability to solve.
I went no contact with my own toxic mother, and she never met her grandchildren. She died over 20 years ago, and remains unlamented by me or my sister, so I do understand your situation. Stay strong, and God bless.

Meanjellybean
You owe her nothing, she has made it very clear she cannot love or care for anyone, not even herself. You have done exactly the right thing and been exceptionally brave - I really wish I’d been as brave as you when I was younger!
You cannot save her, it would be like diving in to rescue a drowning person when you can’t make it back to dry land yourself.
The terrible guilty thoughts can be dealt with, you need help to work through how to do that. Having your own child brings everything up again because it shows you what real love and nurture can be like. Concentrate on yourself and your child, leave that other person in the past where they belong. You deserved to be loved and protected when you were a child, and it is wrong that you weren’t.

53 years of being the scapegoat child and enough gaslighting to make me doubt my own sanity. I've finally had enough.
Events this week although far from being the worst hey have done to me finally made me crack.
I'm moving out of the area and going minimum if no contact. Let someone else be the scapegoat.
What I find so awful is the number of posts and the hundreds of experiences just like mine on here.
Why are there so many dysfunctional people out there, so many nasty, warped personalities. It's terrifying.

I'm glad you found your way to this thread, Madcatladyforever. It is indeed an eye-opener to realise that you are not the only one but also, I hope, a comfort. Hope you are feeling a little better today.

Thanks singing lily. I think there is always a cracking point and I've reached it.
Gaslighting means that you can never really tell whether it's them or you but I'm seeing it clearly now.

When the blinkers fall off, it's a painful process going over incidents and events in your life and seeing so clearly for the first time the casual cruelty, the neglect, and just how the damage has shaped your life. I cried, lost sleep, couldn't eat, had bouts of sheer anger - all over a situation I could not change. In the end, I had to walk away.

It does get better over time so take heart and above all, please be kind to yourself.

That’s good news that you’re finally putting yourself first madcatlady. Just a word of caution though, be careful who you confide in, lots of people just won’t understand and will try to persuade you that it will blow over. I’ve doubted myself a lot, found myself thinking up strategies for dealing with it better. But when I come back here and read other people’s wise words I realise I’m kidding myself, I can’t fix it, I can only fix myself. Good luck x

Well hello again peeps, it's been a while and I'm glad to see this thread still offering support to so many people.
Dunno if anybody remembers my alcoholic DM and her ongoing emotional abuse/manipulation. However. She is presently in rehab, self-funded, after being found at home with burst stomach ulcers, vomiting blood. Not by me, I might add. I'd ha' bloody left her.

Sooooo.... the thing is.... I don't believe for one minute that it'll take. I've already been told "it's lovely in here, it's exactly the same course as I did in X Hospital" (this was 30 years ago) and "I don't know what I'd have done if Alcohol Counsellor hadn't made me go into rehab". She's given my ex-directory phone number to random strangers that she met in hospital "because she isn't going back to her flat" - not that she's had the courtesy to tell me this, mind, one of the random strangers phoned me to give her an update on his mum from the hospital!

I am DONE with her. I've told her in short words that if she drinks when she comes out of rehab - in the "real world" if you like where she isn't physically prevented from buying drink, and where she hasn't got an audience - I'll cut her off permanently. She doesn't believe me, of course, because "I'm your mum" and "you're all I've got" and everybody says she's so lovely (but they would, because that's what narcissists do, isn't it?)

Ugh. Horrible woman.

Mrs R

Your mother will not change and has not changed. Its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way.

I would cut her off permanently from your life now rather than when she gets out of rehab. She will continue to otherwise drag you down and make your own life a misery and problematic. You've already had some random bod phoning you up from the facility and that happened because your mother gave that person your ex directory number!. At the very least the rehab management need to be informed.

I doubt very much that rehab will at all work for your mother for a myriad of reasons mainly the fact she has not stopped drinking for her own reasons or because she wants to. Her primary relationship is still very much with alcohol and I note too her alcohol counsellor made her attend rehab (that person continues to enable her). Coercion (and it will be seen as such by your mother) of this nature rarely if ever works.

Seek support for your own self; Al-anon are worth contacting if you haven't already spoken to them.

I’ve been on this thread previously and had great support (my DP wrecking my DD graduation amongst other things). I am struggling right now, graduation was two years ago and DF has barely spoken to since as somehow it all became my fault that they behave differently the way they did as I pushed them (this is how things always pan out). One of the “threats” was they would never visit me and DP again, I saw that as a good thing.

DM has said many times she has told DF he should apologise for some of the things he screamed in my face at graduation (she doesn’t seem to think she has anything to apologise for). This apology has never happened and the silent treatment has continued.

Anyway, I’ve been struggling mentally the last week or so as it was announced on the phone by DM that’s DF hadn’t said I think we will visit Tara for a few days. Phrased in their usual way as in “this will happen”. The thing is I don’t want them here, this is my safe place away from them and their drama and controlling behaviour. I have been having anxiety attacks since she said that to me.

DD has also been informed of their intention to visit me. When she told me that I felt my chest go tight and just couldn’t breathe. I have spoken to DP a d told him how I feel and he said they are getting old and you may regret this one day. He also said I wasn’t here to keep them under control last time I will support you. But I just don’t want the visit. I have a chronic illness, I don’t have the energy to deal with them.

I have been very LC since my DM created a scene in a bank (I had text DP and DD saying she was spoiling for trouble today, an hour later she winds bank staff up so much we are chased down street by on each of them)

It’s like she’s looks for trouble and then plays victim when she finds it. Every year a neighbour has some jet washing done, every year for couple months before and after she will complain about it (even ringing me crying last year) but will insist on cleaning her windows a couple days before she knows the jet washing will take place, then create a drama if dirt gets on the Windows.

There is no joy, nothing positive, only misery and drama. I could have a wonderful holiday, or do something fun and she will find something either negative to say or ignore it.

Currently at our main home we have a slightly difficult neighbour who most in the neighbourhood all have a chuckle about including us as it’s silly passive aggressiveness that’s not a big deal. My DM is obsessed with this woman, if I phone or visit she will ask what’s s shes done now to be annoying and if I say nothing, she’s disappointed! She even tells people I have a neighbour from hell! (I really don’t)

DM asked me what I thought of DD BF I said he has good points and bad points but overall seems ok. DD subsequently has been telling me how great BF is etc. Coincidence? No it won’t be I guarantee DM will have told DD that I have concerns and then told DD I haven said this and that when in fact I won’t have done (she has form for this)

I just feel so alone with it all, I know compared to some it may seem quite mild but I dread seeing DP and speaking to them, they suck the joy out of me. DD sees what they are like, DP has seen some of the behaviour and says he watches me change in front of his eyes when I’m around them (I can’t speak, I’m edgy and restless).

Everyone sees what DP (and don’t deny it) are like but manage to cope so much better than I can. So sorry for the long post, Justin needed to get it off my chest

Thanks Attila. Noooo of course it won't work! She'll drink till it kills her, and it won't be me who discovers the body. The making it explicit is between me and my conscience... IYSWIM.

We don't have a relationship. 30 years of counselling later, it's a lovely realisation to come to: there's no way of "mediating" our relationship (despite what key workers and Social Services think, on a superficial acquaintance with her) because there is no relationship to repair. She did not love me, she loved the idea of a child and being seen by the world as A Wonderful Mother, but she doesn't know me as an individual, she doesn't recognise or celebrate my achievements, we don't share any emotional congruence. Nor have I ever been encouraged to know her or recognise her as a person in any normal or healthy way. And that's really liberating to recognise.

It's important to me as a person that the way I behave towards her isn't fuelled by anger or a desire for revenge, and that I don't disengage from her as a punishment. She can't hurt me, because she doesn't have that much power in my life! She can be a bloody inconvenience - she is a bloody inconvenience - but what she is not, is my responsibility.

All in all, the sunny uplands are in sight :-D

Mrs Russell

Make your way as swiftly as possible to the sunny uplands!. You do not need randoms from the rehab facility phoning you either. Anyone professional like key workers, social workers who comes into contact with your mother merely end up enabling her.

Tara

re your comments:-
"I have spoken to DP a d told him how I feel and he said they are getting old and you may regret this one day".

Oh not all this about well they're getting old/regret this one day chestnut. This is a rabbit trail that leads nowhere. He is basically invalidating yourself by saying this even though he likely does not himself mean to cause you harm (he probably comes from a non abusive and otherwise emotionally healthy family of origin). He should not be saying this to you at all!!. Call him out on this and tell him not to ever say anything like this to you ever again.

You do not owe your parents anything let alone a relationship here. Make yourself unavailable and do not let them into your home if they do turn up expecting to see you.

I would also look into now lowering still further all contact levels between you and they. Your mother has and remains complicit in this abuse of you and is also your dad's willing enabler. She should not be at all let off the hook here. Your parents are not the people you need and needed here. Its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way.

@AttilaTheMeerkat my DD thinks it’s my DF clumsy attempt at reconciliation. He has had lots of chances to apologise DM says he doesn’t know how too (she defends him all the time). What I want is for once they say sorry, acknowledge how they made me feel (and DD). The contact between us is getting lower and lower they will blame DP, my illness, my location anything they can rather than admit the truth. I have a nice life with DP, I’m happy with him and he is a good man who genuinely cares that I’m ok.

My DM defers to DF over everything and if he says something then of course it must be correct and a fact if he said the sky is red she would agree. She admits that when he stopped talking to me for 18 months she ought to have “intervened” but she didn’t. I was still living at home and dreaded walking into the house, I would feel sick worrying about what imaginary slight I’d done this time. Sometimes he’d say nothing other times he would berate me for half an hour at a time and I dare not speak in that time, I was a wreck. Sometimes she would join in. I’m aware I’ve been emotionally abused by both of them but according to them I “won’t let things go and am too sensitive”.

but according to them I “won’t let things go and am too sensitive”.

That's a classic response, straight out of the handbook, Tara. Also see: "You're making things up"; "It didn't happen, or if it did, it was a joke"; "You are being over-sensitive". I'm sure there are many other variations but they all amount to the same thing. Gaslighting. Minimising. Making your reaction the problem instead of owning up to the real problem, their behaviour that caused the reaction.

AttilaTheMeerkat is right. You owe your parents nothing and for the sake of your own health, both physical and mental, you should make yourself unavailable for any visit from them and do not let them into your home. It's affecting you already and they aren't even there. I'm afraid your OH and your DD simply don't understand (in the case of your DD, that's to your credit by the way, because you've given her a healthy childhood - something your parents never gave you), so you are just going to have to stand your ground and tell them how it is affecting you. They need to know it's causing you real distress but above all, they need to respect your decision and support you in it.

So just an update: she's just phoned me from her flat where she's currently picking up her clothes with her keyworker - do I know where the flat keys are from her key safe.
Me (doing Medium Chill for all I'm worth) Umm.... no, no clue, sorry.
Keyworker: (to me) Well, could you get the locks changed?
Me: No, sorry, SHE will need to contact her letting agent, it's a rented flat.

smirky face here
Polite, but firm. Ooooh it feels nice to let her little tentacles just slide right off!