"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I think the first time it really hit home to me that my mother wouldn't ever support me was at school. Youngest of 4, my room over the house battle ground. Night after night, if it wasn't Dad versus one or other of older brothers, it would be Mother, or sometimes it was her. Sometimes violent, always loud.
I couldn't concentrate, supposed to be studying, ending up sat in a cupboard with my hands over my ears when I couldn't bear it any more.
Pulled up for the poor quality of my work, I ended up admitting the reason why to my teacher.
A few days later I was summoned to the teachers (also the deputy head) office.
There sat my mother, the teacher repeated what I'd said, without a flicker she replied " I have no idea what she's talking about. You do know she lies."

Rather than lose face, admit there was a problem, she branded me a liar. It stuck, my school life after that was made an absolute misery.
She didn't like my sister much either, boys were best and in particular brother b could do no wrong. More on him later.
Dad didn't seem to like any of us, I don't have many childhood memories, but I do remember my 8th birthday. I had a party, over excited I climbed on the furniture to reach a balloon, the silence as the slap across my bare legs stopped the whole room. My face as scarlet as my fathers hand print, later years would move that to my face.
I beg your indulgence as I unload. I really don't have anywhere else. If I overstep please correct me. I have no wish to offend.

@Ridi, I'm so sorry, you've been treated absolutely appallingly😞
these things are so damaging😞
How are you now? what's happening with you?
(I may go offline soon because it's late here with me but others will be along in the morning)

Hello,

I've just spent the past few hours reading some of the thread. In tears at time as I recognise how similar my own dysfunctional family is to others.

My lightbulb moments have been over the last year or so. Like so many others it's since I've had my own child. Which is fascinating in itself why we don't see it before (maybe some do.)

I actually have so much to unpick. Will definitely get copies of some of the books recommended.

For most of my life I felt I had a good childhood and great parents. Lovely holidays, days out (stately homes?!) spoiled
at Christmas and birthdays. I don't think we acted like spoilt brats though. They are good with practical support and have helped each of us financially at different times. It's definitely the emotional support that is lacking.

I've always known my M was different to friend's mothers. We never really did much in the way of mum and daughter things,no matter how much I've asked over the years.

With all the reading I've done so far I think my mum may be a vulnerable narcissist. She has had a lot of hurt in her life, especially her 20s. But the hurt doesn't get resolved and remains buried and deep. It all resurfaces at different times and her hurt means she puts up a wall and pushes people away. She always puts her own needs first. And if any of her kids are hurting about something, it hurts her more.

With fresh eyes I now see my childhood differently. My older sister became the black sheep around 12 years of age. Nasty rows with M. I would have been about 10. My younger brother was the golden child throughout childhood. I was the middle child and was jealous of my siblings. Middle child syndrome. I was always told off for being jealous. My elder sister was disabled and a lot was expected of me in terms of helping her. My brother wasn't expected to do anything.

Any fall out between me and my brother was always my fault as I was the oldest and should know better. Then I was always told off for being bossy to my siblings even though I was expected to look after them. I did very well at school academically. I know this made my parents pleased/proud.

Teenage years and in my 20s. Very, very nasty rows with M and dad would always stay silent and eventually defend M. If i retreated to my room M would shout up the stairs or even come barging into my room to have the final yell. There is never any reasoning with her. She is never wrong. It's always your fault. The hurt is always hers. Usually there is no resolution or apologies, and after a bit of silence and awkwardness on both sides, it gets 'forgotten' and everything goes back to normal.

Over the last 5-6 years (I'm now late 30s) i realised the worst arguments were in the evenings and my mum is a heavy dependent drinker every night. I'm not sure how far back the alcohol goes. This probably exacerbated the arguments. So I've learned to just avoid any disagreements in the evening and pretty much most of the time. For a long time I felt this 'worked' as we no longer really argue. Except all I'm finding now is she continues with her bad behaviour and comments but I just bite my tongue and ignore it for a peaceful life. But I can't keep living like this.

She's criticised every parenting decision I've made if it's not done her way. She 'jokes' I'm a 'bad mummy' if DS is upset (he's 2). Despite this i would say at the moment I'm the golden child. She's NC about 3 years with DSis (black sheep) and DBro is in the bad books for not making enough effort to see them. Yet even as the current golden child its not enough!!

Even though it's now all becoming so much clearer, I just can't face going NC. I know dad is her enabler (defends her to the hilt) but him and DS have such an amazing relationship. Dad is not a bad person, he's just a weak one. Mum is very controlling. I hate the way she talks to him sometimes.

Also I'm a single parent and DS is also disabled (god this is so outing if anyone who knows me reads this). I already have very little by way of support. I do have some good friendships, 2 know a bit how I'm feeling at the moment, but this is massive. Whilst they will listen they just can't possibly support me through something like NC.

I also think as I've been so passive over a number of years, it's going to be a sort of massive shock to the entire family if I do a
NC. I feel like I need to start phasing in some boundaries first and then take it from there depending on reactions. They currently have too much knowledge and access to my day to day life. Partly because I have no partner so I share more with them.

My first task is to cancel going over to theirs for a bbq this weekend. I'm too emotional right now. It was only arranged today but I need to cancel without causing a drama. They will know something is up.

Oh and I've been chronically single for many years, and I've recently realised I have a fearful avoidant attachment type, which I then read can be linked to emotional neglect in childhood so it's all starting to piece together the impact my parents behaviour has had on my entire life.

Gosh sorry this is epic in length! I don't expect detailed response to it all. It's quite cathartic just writing it down.

I've had a headache most the evening. Is this normal, I feel so stressed right now.

Hi Etty glad you feel you’ve got some answers. It’s very powerful when you suddenly see things in focus, you’re bound to feel emotional and physical pain can be a result.

Your experience sounds miserable, your family is divided and your needs are not being met. However here you are, with a lot of new things to think about and perhaps some new ideas about a brighter future?

Take it easy, go slowly, process it all. Find your boundaries.

For you 💐

Slipping into this thread here because I'm having a particularly horrid week and just needed someplace to rant. I hope that's alright with everyone.

My mother is a very anxious/insecure person. As far as I can remember, I've always dreaded gatherings involving her and my dad's side of the family (whom I get along with just fine on my own). Whenever they're around, she becomes extremely 'uptight', for lack of a better word. This manifests itself in the form of nonstop whispered criticism as to how I (a 26 year old adult) should/shouldn't behave and what I should/shouldn't say.

It's completely ridiculous! For context, I boarded with half these people, played on the same sports team as them, spent every alternate weekend with my dad's family growing up (parents divorced when I was 4) etc so we're all quite relaxed/informal around each other. My mother (who sees them twice a year because my grandparents feel that everyone should be together once in a while, divorced or not) obviously feels differently and has told me that I'm embarrassing her because I don't fit in with this strange preconceived notion she has as to what behaviour/speech is appropriate.

Oh the joys of family. Thank god I've got 4 months before I have to deal with this nonsense again.

Just remembered another incident involving my mother that occurred less than a month ago. It's trivial compared to some of the stuff others are going/have gone through, but god it makes me so disproportionally angry.

Arranged to drive 45 minutes to my mother's place to pick her up so we could spend the day together at this farmer's market. Upon arrival, she took one look at my choice of footwear (Birkenstocks and socks which I know is controversial but it's not as if I was going barefoot), criticised it, and refused to go out with me because it's 'embarrassing' for her to be standing next to me! What a colossal waste of time.

@Ulterego
Thanks for your kindness. I don't know how I am tbh.

I'm guessing my mother has passed away now. This is pretty heavy going so if you're feeling fragile dont read on.
In the middle of losing both my current in laws, suddenly 6 weeks apart earlier this year, I got a message mother had gone into palliative care. Looking after mil 24/7 with dementia, having not spoken to mother in years, I did nothing.
I cut contact with her, over my sons funeral.....I was widowed in my 20s, brother b instead of helping, left some equipment in my garden for a few weeks, promised it was safe, it was incredibly dangerous. When I pulled him up about it, he just laughed. It took me a year and a solicitor to get rid off the stuff.
When my son died a decade later, I specifically told my mother not to bring brother b. No hints, no anything that could be misconstrued. Do not bring brother b, I do not want him there.
At the crematorium, there was mother with brother b. I blanked him. Afterwards at the wake, she came up to give me a hug and uttered the ever kind and thoughtful words. "Go and talk to your brother. He's upset"
We had one last awful conversation a few months after that, too tired to relate that disaster right now, but that was that.

@Ridi,
That is horrific, your mother and brother putting the boot in like that after the appalling personal tragedy you had experienced.
thank god the bitch is dead.
It's very hard to understand where this kind of behaviour comes from, I sometimes think that these people have a very powerful predatory instinct when they see someone who is wounded and vulnerable they have an overpowering urge to damage them further. Then when I think about what kind of person would do this it's hard not to reach the conclusion that this person is barely human, I don't know what to say is that too extreme?
I look forward to the deaths of my parents, it can't be long now, I'm sure I will feel safer knowing that they no longer walk the earth

@Etty, I recognise traits from my own mother in your account of things, it took me a very long time to be able to stand up to her but I think if I'd had support I could have done it earlier, you could start gradually strategically building and strengthening your boundaries?

@Stable, how ridiculous and infuriating, the classic 'making it all about her' thing 😣

Another one here just dropping in. My DM isnt nearly as bad as some of the stuff written in here, but she is difficult and odd and our relationship isnt like other mother and daughter relationships

A few weeks ago I started this thread on here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3649180-My-DM-is-always-belittling-and-insulting-me-in-front-of-other-people
and got some excellent advice, and the general opinion seemed to be that DM IS jealous of me. She cant stand me being the centre of attention or getting any praise when she is around, its stupid and completley ridiculous but there you go.

There is so much more to it though. She is very manipulative and uses guilt trips and IMO her (minor) health issues to try and get her own way. She will throw money and gifts at DB and I and will get huffy and take genuine offence when we dont accept them, or offer to pay our own way. I know this sounds ungrateful, but I feel like its maybe another manipulation tactic. Bare in mind we are both 30 somethings with full time jobs. If we were struggling then fine, but we are not!

On our own away from others she's fine so long as I agree with her on everything, dont ask her questions and listen to her complaining. I have to listen, any advice will result in a strop. She is anxious, lonely, bored and unfullfilled and wont do anything about it. DB and I are her life, and she seems to want to cling onto us at all costs.

Im sure there is so much more. But it helps to just write it down here!

stable I’d suggest she’s projecting her own insecurities. You’re not really a person in your own right, more of an extension of her. If you’ve told her how you feel and it’s made no difference perhaps have a break for a while.
It’s so exhausting being with someone like that.

@Cheese, I can totally relate to the jealous mother thing, in my own case I was so crushed by my parents it didn't occur to me that anyone be jealous of me but looking back I can see it all really clearly now, they both really needed to keep me in a subordinate position relative to them.
That thing of her clinging to you and your brother, urghh that is very difficult I would want to run very fast and far in the opposite direction I hate that feeling of being stifled and clung to☹️

@Cheeseoncrumpets Agree with your thought about jealousy, as we became young women, mother definitely resented my sister and I more.
@Ulterego I know my mother had her own issues. I only met her father once and I only discovered my grandmothers name, and when she died doing family tree stuff a few weeks ago.
I think it's the distrust and isolation these toxic relationships create, that you carry with you, it affects your whole outlook, your whole life. Swimming through treacle.

Ulterego. Yes, I think she wants to keep me in my 'place'. For a long time I was shy, insecure, lacked confidence, had poor mental health etc and through a lot of soul searching and some counselling I've almost managed to overcome it. However I feel like im in a constant battle of wills with DM, as she tries to keep my down and subordinate to her.

In my thread I mentioned how she needs to be the centre of attention in a social gathering, is very loud and likes to 'hold court'. She will flirt outrageously with men, even men young enough to her sons! She is very, very unkind and bitchy about other women, almost mysognstic actually. I think she see's them as competition, and I'm included in that group.

It is true that these people who have made our lives such a struggle were themselves damaged, I'm not saying that they should be denied help and support to deal with the issues, but they didn't seek it, never looked honestly at themselves they just lashed out and took it out on the innocent and the vulnerable.
Maybe it just wasn't available for them I don't know, but we still have to protect ourselves from them so that we can be better people going forward, so that we can make a positive contribution to those around us.
Don't let them steal your chance to flourish and have a better life.

@Cheese, if I try and imagine myself in your shoes I think I would take the opportunity to destroy my mother, I could do easily now, I could put her down and make her look stupid because I can see it all now
you are 20 years younger it's probably best to walk away (?) don't let her steal from you anymore

@Herocomplex It definitely is exhausting! I can't even remember the last time we went out where she didn't spend the entire time worrying about whether other people were 'staring' (I don't really wear makeup and apparently that's unacceptable) or if they were judging her/us for goodness knows what. It's worse in some situations e.g. when we meet my dad's family but everyday is a day of embarrassment, apparently.

I've tried going low-contact for my sanity but I think it just reinforces her worldview that she's not 'good enough'.

Could you find some way @Stable to point out to her that she clearly has mental health issues and tell her to get some therapy, that probably sounds like an impossible thing to do but it could be a starting point towards reframing the situation?
It's totally unfair for her to just dump herself on you and make you absorb all this shit, you must prevent her from damaging you

Oh I could very easily put her down, there is so much amunition there that I could use. But I bite my tongue because it will almost certainly make her look like a victim and me a complete bitch. I also dont really want to lower myself to her level.

Ive noticed she's ramped up the comments and the more confident and assertive I get the worse she gets in response. A few years ago we went on a city break together (I know). She finds holidays and in particular airports really stessful, probably because she cant control all around her. Anyway, I digress. When we arrived back in the UK we were in a long queaue for passort control, and then they suddenly opened another desk. Everyone surged forward, and she decided she want to go through it as well yelled 'come on' and pushed me forwards really hard. I turned and said 'don't push me, why did you push me?' she ignored me, and so I asked again and she turned around, looked at me with a sneer and said ' I didnt touch you, it was that woman over there'?! And pointed at a random woman next to us!

I knew that woman hadn't laid a finger on me! Then all the way around the baggage hall and arrivals she kept muttering ' dont stand too close to Cheese, in case you push into her' not directly at me but muttering loud enough I could hear.

I think what happened was that I'd outright challenged her shoving me, and had done so publicly and her response was to lie and then make me feel bad for daring to challenge her.

The normal response would be to say sorry, but thats another thing. She will never apologise, even when very wrong. She really upset DB last Xmas and refused to apologise to him as well. I was there, she was in the wrong that time as well....

@Cheeseoncrumpets

I think she wants to keep me in my 'place

as she tries to keep my down and subordinate to her

This is exactly how I feel my mum treats us all. Over the last few years we've not argued as I thought it was better for my MH to not stand up to her. Now I see it as she's succeeded in putting me in my place as I no longer (or rarely) disagree with her.

@Ulterego

It is true that these people who have made our lives such a struggle were themselves damaged

My mum is definitely damaged. It's why I see her as a vulnerable narc (does anyone know much about this?) and why I feel so stuck in FOG as I feel sad for her. I know she's had bad things happen to her in her life. But if she's not prepared to seek help for that, why should I bare the brunt of her issues? It's her right to choose how she deals with her issues but she must (but won't) accept the impact this has on other people.

I've decided I'm still going to the bbq tomorrow. I've already said I'm going and I'm not ready for any confrontation yet and changing my mind about going will raise questions I'm not prepared for.

I know my brother and SIL struggle with my mum at the moment. We sometimes have a moan with each other about the latest thing she may have said or done. If they were on board is there any point in trying to address it with our parents together? I guess mum would feel ganged up and be very defensive. But one of the biggest issues in our family is nobody talks through and resolved problems. They just get buried and tip toe on eggshells. I feel like if all parties could be reasonable then it's resolvable. But my mum has never been reasonable. God it's so frustrating when you can see a solution but the other person just won't budge.

@Etty it seems worth exploring with your brother and sister-in-law, do you think you could show them this thread?

Probably @Ulterego. My SIL would definitely read it. I've already briefly mentioned to her (in a group message) this morning I'm struggling at the moment but we will talk about it another time. I want us to all try and have a nice sunny weekend. She said they definitely will.

I don't know how DB feels about his childhood. I think we had very different experiences. I don't know how my jealousy of him growing up and the arguments I had with parents about him affected him. I never had an issue with him, just with my parents about how I felt the treated us differently.

I have tons of home footage from our childhoods. I've been tempted to start watching them to see if I can get any more insight. I do doubt myself sometimes, that maybe I'm the one being narcissistic, making it all about how I feel when all my parents tried to do was their best and I'm criticising them for it.

She said they definitely will talk to me I mean

I've just been reading some of the daughters of narcissistic mothers website. I feel like I'm reading about me.

Does anyone know how narcissistic mothers typically affect sons? Is it always something to do with the daughter that makes it toxic? (Not blaming the daughter, I mean the something specific with the mother daughter relationship). As a family we always thought us women always clashed and argued because we are so alike. Now I'm not so sure.

@Ulterego I could try. I'm not sure how I'll go about it but I'm sure I'll find a way. Somedays I think I just feel guilty about the state of our whole relationship. A part of me is glad that I went to boarding school from the age of 11 because god knows how I would've turned out had I spent my entire teenage years under her roof. Another part of me however, feels like I've made it worse for her because in her eyes, me going away meant me choosing my dad over her (almost everyone in his family attended boarding school so to her it was a her vs them situation).

Hell, maybe I should get myself into therapy as well. Thing whole thing is a mess.