"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
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April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Moving home over the past couple of weeks/next few and my father has contacted me, same my brother, essentially offering to buy a £1000+ new stuff. Yes we're much struggling at the moment and so much doesn't work, but I'm wondering why all of a sudden this is on the cards after a few years LC now.

It'd be great to say yes, given our circumstances, but these are people who will definitely have an ulterior motive.

The physical reaction I think Marmaduke is totally normal presume you've been intimidated and shouted down as a child it's very difficult not to be triggered when you face this threat again.

Have you ever stood up to them before can you go through in your head what happened and imagine being able to deal with it and cope with it?

Hi Flowers 😊 do you think your mother will give up if the gifts and texts are not acknowledged?

Steve, I agree the offer of money is a tool to make you feel obligated towards him

Thanks for your replies. She has given up on the texts - there were literally 2 or 3 but not so sure about the gifts!

Right, what about this then -

Hi, just to let you know that when (dd) and (ds) go back to school they will be coming home on a Monday and Tuesday. We appreciate the support you have given us but this will work better for us as a family now they are getting older. Gives them more time for socialising, doing homework etc. X

@ulterego yeah I have stood up to them before, about 10 years ago, and the response was a massive guilt trip about how supportive are of me and how all they do is try and help me. Etc.

Have decided will wait till next Saturday to send it, so that I’m not breaking the silence until I absolutely have to, so that they can’t come back on the Monday to have the kids and kick off as I haven’t told them I don’t want them too. Sorry for all the messages. Got my knickers in a right twist over this one. I’m not good at confrontation at all whereas Stepdad positively thrives on it and mother plays the helpless victim. Dysfunction-tastic! X

Marmaduke I would probably be a little more succinct, 'thanks for all the help in the past, we've decided this is the best option for us now'.
the longer it is the more words you use the more opportunities you are giving them to grapple with you...that's how I see it
I'm thinking that they will reply in a way which attempts to elicit concessions explanations or prostrations from you, and then it might be a good time to double down and say 'thanks but this is the way we're going to do it now'?
Any guilt tripping just brush it aside.
What can they do? They don't have any leverage over you do they?

@Ulterego
Cheers, yes I think what you wrote sounds good. No, they don’t have any leverage over me, I’m not depending on them for anything, I could literally walk away from them and it would make no difference to my life. They wrote me out the will a few years ago so don’t have to worry about losing my inheritance lol. They said they are leaving it to my brother as he needs it more than me because he still lives at home and stuff. He is the ultimate grey rock, poor lad.

Then do it, walk away you have nothing to lose, they need you way way way more than you need them (I know it's easier said than done)

All this stuff about helping you with the children is probably just to make you feel obligated to help them out as they get older, they've got a live-in carer with your brother there and they're keeping you on a retainer so that you can also be part of their team of helpers

Hello,

My experience is not I think anywhere near some on here but I’m looking for some advice.

We adopted 3 Ds about 14 months ago and grandparents have not been great either side. My DP live a mile down the road though and although would visit every couple of weeks no daytrips/ looking after on there own and half a dozen offer to babysit (feel awkward asking as my dad seems to begrudge it somewhat). Anyway DSis who lives in Middle East comes home with her three, we don’t see my DP for 8 weeks, day trips, look after the kids for a weekend on their own ( we haven’t been away one night) and make no effort to contact me. I call it out after a very awkward family meal when we do finally see them and it’s ignoring no contact and then Dsis calls me saying what a horrible son/ brother/ human being I am etc and NC for a week since from either sibling or DP. They did this last year and said they were not sure they could see them (which was rubbish) but I gave them the benefit and warned them it needed to change. It hasn’t. I’m used to being totally dropped for years ( both Dsis or angel and princess as DF calls them are priority) but won’t accept it for the kids. Am I being unreasonable here? Any advice greatly received, Dad of 3

Dad

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and yours here appears to be the scapegoat (a sibling is far more favoured). In turn sadly, all your family unit are scapegoated too. Its not your fault your parents are like this and you did not make them that way.

I would go all out to make a good life for yourselves as a family unit and live well, you do not need such drains on your lives. As someone who has frankly disinterested grandparents on both sides too I can tell you that the best thing is really to live well and to carve out a life for yourselves. I made some good friends from school and also used the babysitting agency Sitters. All this was very helpful to me over the years.

What does your wife make of her parents behaviours (I note you say that both sets have not been great) as well as your own?.

Sorry, I should add really for the last decade things have been up and down and I’m not sure if they just don’t like me....accommodation fell through and Dsis would not share a room for two months whilst I looked for somewhere to live, DF said it wasn’t fair to make them share so had to live with my grandmother for 3 months. I was the only one working out of the three of us (others in education at the time), late to my wedding and apparently selfish because they were having a bad time in the hairdressers just before my wedding, calling in a loan the day we completed on my house to give to a sibling for travelling (literally the day) and the only money I ever took. Stating why would anyone want to meet my children and DF not sure if he could love them as much but would do his best. The list is endless. And now they are buying one a house and the other I wouldn’t be surprised as she wants to return to the uk. Am I mad or do they not like me? Self esteem is rock bottom, only one who works full time with three children who have had some challenges due to their background but we are getting if not got there, DP they are fit and healthy but just not interested? Please tell me I’m not insane

Thanks Atilla, I’m not going mad! dpil are a bit older and 100 miles away but they see them on par really. Not in as good health and Fil still works so it’s a bit of a challenge but I’ve kind of left that to DH.

DH Recognised the ‘favouritism’ and is furious over the lack of interest over the holidays and in comparison to Dsis children. We did so much for them before the kids, hosting parties for c 100 when they used to return, even their christenings, Christmas, the lot. This year with working and the kids I’m just exhausted trying to keep on top and said I’m not organising anything so that was that.

Dad,

Its not you, its them. Its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them this way. You have come from an emotionally unhealthy and dysfunctional family unit. And no you are not insane either, but they are disordered of thinking.

Read about scapegoats and scapegoating within narcissistic family structures; what you write of here is absolutely typical of what happens to scapegoats. You are very much the scapegoat in your family of origin whilst your siblings remain favoured. Do read also about FOG; fear, obligation and guilt.

The best thing you can do with your entire family of origin is to have no contact whatsoever with them. And that itself is hard and not without pain either because you have to let go of all hope that they will somehow change and say sorry to you. You can say no more to being abused by them. Draw your line in the sand here and work further on your boundaries with a therapist.

Thanks Atilla,

I’m not sure if I’m ready for NC just yet and if there is a slim chance the DS’ can have a relationship with them outside of me as they have had so much loss I’d like to try to. Since having the boys it’s like a lightbulb has come on. We went for a meal with all of them and I wasn’t rude or ignored anyone but concentrated on all the children. I forgot cards for the next year for my Dsis so left them on the doorstep the next day. Yes a little unkind but I felt like I was frozen from the dread of seeing them all and we had all said goodbyes at the meal. Before I would have shrugged it off but this year it’s as if I just couldn’t face it anymore. I know it was rude and ignorant but the tirade from my family following was horrendous, I’d ruined my Dsis holiday and why would she want to come back, texts from the others on why would I want my Dsis think I hate her. Why am I such a poor human being/ brother/ son and who is going to look after my mum post an op next month if not me.... Really appreciate your advice. I’m going to wait and see if they if make contact and have one last conversation on my terms stating everything and then it’s up to them to change or they will not see me again.

Marmaduke I’ve taken a little vow to myself to try and be more honest. I used to appease people by telling them little white lies, mentally wringing my hands in case I upset people. I’m trying to be clearer and fairer, more genuine now.

Now you know your parents modus operandi it might be easier than you think to state your case. What have you got to lose?

There’s a useful quote - ‘speak the truth, even though your voice shakes’

Speak up, stand up, be free of the nonsense. You’re in charge now.

Dad

You’re their scapegoat.

If these people were not good parents to you when you were growing up it’s the same deal for your kids too. Why would you at all encourage your children to have a relationship with your parents if they treat you as their parent so very badly?. You would not put up with this behaviour from a friend, your parents are no different.

Do wait for them to contact you but I would not expect these people to change or even listen to your point of view. The only point of view that matters to them is their own. They will keep putting on you as long as you at all continue to pick up the rope they hold out to you. Let it go and no longer play your assigned familial role here.

To all my wonderful new friends on this thread who have supported me so much the past couple of days:

I'm lying in the bath listening to music, celebrating that although I'm sad, a whole horrible chapter in my life is officially over and that ugly, rotting bag I have just dumped behind me and walked away, leaving it on the doorstep of the person whose sh*t it is. (By the way I haven't even had a )

The song "Express Yourself" came on, and I just think the lyrics are so important for everyone on here (YouTube link at the bottom if you fancy a listen/dance!)

I'm so proud of myself and proud of all of you, whom I've never met, but am walking alongside you on this difficult but empowering path. Sorry it's so long but totally worth reading till the final line

Express Yourself!
Express Yourself!

You don't never need help from nobody else
All you got to do now:
Express Yourself!

What ever you do, uh, do it good, uh
What ever you do, do , do, Lord, Lord, do it good
All right...

It's not what you look like, when you're doin' what you're doin'
It's what you're doin' when you're doin' what you look like you're doin'!

Express Yourself!
Express Yourself!

They're doin' it on the moon, yeah, uh
In the jungle too, uh
Everybody on the floor, now, uh
Jumpin' like a kangaroo
So let the horns do the thing they do, yo...ah, uh, ow! Uh-uh uh uh

Some people have everything, and other people don't
But everything don't mean a thing if it ain't the thing you want

m.youtube.com/watch?v=jW4VZ5J0fNQ

@Herocomplex of it. Your kids just need you and (as I am learning myself) just because you had no choice but to take their shit when you grew up does not mean you need to take it now. It doesn’t sound to me like they are bringing much to the party here.. I know we would all love to have a big happy extended family but the reality unfortunately is that we can’t change these people, we just have to learn how protect ourselves and our kids from them. Sad but true.
@true I’m glad you are feeling good; loved what you said about the ugly rotting bag you’ve dumped off (hopefully be getting rid of my own smelly old bag of shit soon too lol)

@Attila and @hero cheers for the advice, it’s helpful for others who are used to dealing with narcissists to point out what is the best approach. I think i am starting to realise how to play them at their own game, and not make the mistake of dealing with them as if they are people who give a fuck about anyone but themselves and who can be reasoned with. They are going to treat me like shite whatever way I dress it up so may as well stand up for myself for a change. Hard breaking the habit of a lifetime tho eh? Anyways, thanks again xx

True I’m so glad for you that you’re having some joy!

It’s like taking off shoes that hurt your feet and wondering why you wore them for so long. 🙂

Oh Christ don’t know what happened there lol I deleted first half of my post ! Was for @Dadandmumofthree and basic just if it was that your DF sounds bloody awful, saying things like how he wasn’t sure whether he could love you kids as much etc. And the pair of them sound like they add nothing of value to your life. Lots of love x

Thanks Atilla, I think I’ve just got to go through a process even though unless it changes deep down I know the answer.

I really hope you all have a great evening, Truerefuge, I may take your advice on express yourself!! .personally I’m now on the wine after a somewhat challenging week! Hope some of you are too!

I just hope my wider family( big family) understand when the proverbial hits the fan!

Dad

Thanks Marmaduke, I do wonder how much of a driver he is here...have to admit when I went to live with his mum when they didn’t have room for me she was furious. We were very close and I wonder if that for him was part of the problem, my mother loathed her most of the time and admittedly I was known as the favourite but that comes with its own price... not that I regret it and those last few days with her were brilliant, I don’t think he liked that one bit but someone had to be there. Anyway signing off, thanks everyone for their support!

Dad, and mum of three smashing little lads x