"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
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March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'm 27 and spent the afternoon shopping with my parents and little sister for her sixth form uniform. Our father spent the whole time arguing with our mother and repeating the sentence "it's a waste of time". Growing up I loved him the most- before I realised what he was really like.

I can't remember a single hug. I have no memory of being read to or played with.I do remember being sworn at and made fun of. Of being called a failure when I was 3 marks of an A* in one of my a-levels. I never felt like I could go somewhere if I had any worries or ask for anything.

I'm 27 and have 3 photographs with my father- all before the age of 2.

I am jealous of others who could feel loved as a child. I've already been in therapy and taking a break from it for now. But I still have this ache for the life and the person I could have been. We've talked about it being a form of grief but how do you get over it?

Longlongsummer there's definitely people on here with toxic inlaws - with or without toxic parents on top. Lightning often strikes twice in the same place. Susan Forward has a book called Toxic Inlaws, it's quite good - there are definitely some issues that are different, not least the issue of grandkids and access.

Orangecake I wish I knew how you get over it. Time does help, but I don't think it really leaves you, it's too big an influence on your life. At least you've realised young. I spent years of my life putting up with bullies and bad behaviour because I was so used to it. You will have the insight to know that you deserve better.

Hello Stately Homers, I've lurked and occasionally posted on this thread for years without knowing where to start my story.

My mother went NC with my siblings and I after my father died 18 months ago. She did this by emailing one sibling and asked to pass it on to all of us. The email stated how she didn't like us and that we'd ruined her life and now at last she could have her life back. That we had let her down by not producing one single grandchild between us, (I believe I'd have gone NC much earlier if I'd had DCs.)

However since this has happened she still continued to send my siblings stupidly large cheques on their birthdays. Not me though, it was my birthday yesterday. It makes me so fucking angry that she still attempts to manipulate and single one of us out for different treatment.

I am having to almost superglue my hands to my arse to stop myself from sending an email spelling out all her disgusting behaviour over the years. The only thing that's stopping me is knowing that I won't give the twat the satisfaction of knowing she can still upset me.

I have real issues with women, (and therefore myself) because of her, I cannot bear to be hugged or touched by another woman. I can honestly say she's the worst person I've ever met and I actually do hate her. And I've known some terrible and abusive people.

Then I looked at the self absorbed twaddle on the estrangement thread on GN- why oh why did I do that?

I hope you're all having a better day than me.

Hi Spam bloody dreadful, really sorry. Birthdays can be a real low point, awful if you get contact and awful if you don’t. Both underline with a thick black line what you’re missing in your life - a loving parent.
The cheque thing is laughable, do they cash them? That you don’t get one is significant, it means she’s singling you out, see’s you as more likely to contact her. She might vary it in years to come, you never know.
Write the letter, be really vile, then tear it up or burn it.
She’s not NC by the way - she’s very much playing the narcissist’s favourite game. I’m very sorry. Have you had any therapy? It’s worth thinking about, if not.
Birthday 💐 from me xx

Oh and keep off GN, that gives me the RAGE!!!

@Spam, I'm so sorry I can't imagine how humiliated, insulted and just slapped in the face you must feel by your mother's disgusting and vicious behaviour.
I have also looked at the GN threads, self absorbed twaddle indeed it is 😣

And yes that's not no contact is it, that's some version of playing both ends to the middle 🙄
I don't know about writing letters and burning them, I think I'd be burning effigies....

How do you deal with difficult parents wanting contact with their GC? I said my mum could speak to them any time as long as she didn’t discuss my abusive siblings or their children (her go-to topic of conversation).

She says this is too hard for her and she can’t/won’t comply but continues to ask to visit and call. I blocked her after the most recent exchange.

Now she has sent a parcel to my kids - we missed the post but they saw the collection card and know it’s there. I feel like I have to let them have it and then I have to phone and say thank you - which of course is the whole purpose of sending anything.

I am so conflicted - on the whole my mum is a good grandparent. She prefers my dd and has lost her temper once or twice in the past with my son. I feel wrong to stop their relationship, I just hate being manipulated in this way. Maybe they should just send a video saying thank you and then I block her again? Or should I facilitate phonecalls? Ignore the whole thing? What does that teach my children? They don’t know everything and I don’t want them to think if someone annoys you a bit you just stop talking to them - but they are way too young to know the truth and I may never want them to know everything.

I want to model the right behaviour to my kids and I feel so lost.

@yeti
You ask her not to mention certain things and she says that is too hard for her?
say what?
It's too hard for her to control the words that come out of her mouth?!?
She's just a liability, I mean right across the board... has she ever managed to even hold down the job if she can't control what comes out of her mouth?

It's just bullshit isn't it, what she means it is she can't bring herself to respect your wishes, she sees you as so inferior to her that she cannot bear to do as you ask her to do.
(that's what occurs to me when I read your post, excuse me if I have misunderstood)

@Yeti,
I think this is a refusal to accept your authority as a parent, she is trying to go over your head and insist that she is 'above the law' she can do what she likes and she doesn't have to listen to you when it comes to your children, you may be the parent but she is the 'super parent' and she knows best.
Ultimately she needs you more than you need her, she wants a relationship with her grandchild, I would be very tough and impose sanctions until she complies with you
you are in charge here

Thanks for the replies. I think she's singling me out because I'd already gone LC. Her favourite game is scapegoat/golden child.

My siblings do cash the cheques, I think they see it as compensation, (I would). What made it worse was when talking to one sister about it whose response was, "well I didn't get anything off anyone for my birthday" but she did though, a gift and card from me and the cheque and card from my mother. This particular sibling isn't interested in anything I have to say and interrupts me every time I say something to say how that thing happened to her, but obviously much worse. Like my mother does.

Hero,I haven't made up my mind about therapy. I've tried it, (and also trained for a while). I find myself just going around in circles. I did write the no-send letter a few years ago - but I hit send by mistake! It detailed all the abuse - refusing to let me have a bra until I was 13, (then taking me to the end of sales, when everything's jumbled up in a big bin and being instructed to rummage in that), calling me up to the bathroom to admire her naked body while she was drunk and slurring, which was terrifying.

When I was about 7 she barged into my room and took a photo of me with no clothes on. I was a very shy child, and begged her not to develop it. She did, and put it in the family album. I lost count of the times I took it out, ripped it up and flushed it down the loo. She'd always get it redeveloped and would show any visitors. If we went for "family visits" the fucking album would come with us. I'd politely ask to go for a walk so I didn't have to sit there whilst she was passing around this picture. Jesus, the humiliation. I should have screamed at them to stop, but I was too afraid of my parents.

I used to think there was something wrong with me and that i was a psychopath because I felt no love for my parents.

Your mother is the psychopath Spam, I mean really I'm shuddering reading that, she is seriously dysfunctional, very messed up
(I feel no love for mine either)
I would cut her out completely and pray for her death

Yeti, they'll repeat the same patterns they did with you. Your mother's already told you she's not prepared to modify her behaviour around your DCs, and she's favouring one over the other. Listen to what she's telling you.

and pray for her death

Oh I do but I never imagine how hilarious it would be to then skin her and mince around in said skin in a comedic manner, honest

Hi Yeti

How on earth is your mother a good grandparent; again this sounds like FOG talking (fear obligation and guilt). She is absolutely NOT a good grandparent to your kids or a mother to you. You seem to be mired in the dear old FOG re your mother (who did seemingly nothing to protect you from your abusive siblings).

Your boundaries re your mother need urgent raising because she can and will continue to ride roughshod over you and your kids otherwise.

Ignore your mother's demands completely and do not respond at all. You need to maintain radio silence. Now she resorts to sending your children gifts; this is hoovering behaviour often done by narcissists and other disordered of thinking types to draw you back into their dysfunctional world.

You do not have to collect this parcel but if you do it should NOT BE AT ALL ACKNOWLEDGED by you. If you collect it then take those items immediately to the charity shop. Sorry for the capital letters here but it is important this is not acknowledged. The response from you to her is the reward because she knows she has you then. Do not fall for such attempts. Keep her blocked on all channels and do not allow her access to your children under any circumstances. Not all parents/grandparents are nice and some like your mother remain abusive. It could be argued that she has remained the same since your own childhood.

The best lesson you can teach your children here is to show them that
the only acceptable level of abuse in any relationship is none. Your children need to know the age appropriate truth re your mother and they won't start on about her if you keep any and all explanations short.

You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she is a crap example of a grandparent to your kids now. Do not subject them to her emotional manipulations. If she is too toxic/difficult/batshit for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for your kids too.

I sometimes look at the GN thread, and I feel like a need a wash afterwards, you know what I mean? It's not healthy but I do it anyway.

Anyway, so that you don't have to, Issendai did this sort of deep dive and analysis of what goes on in estranged parent forums. It makes sense of the crazy-making "logic" and gaslighting and fake contrition they all do, and sort of reduces its effect.

Spam your mum's a proper nutter. The hoovering with the cheques is sort of standard operating procedure, but leaving just one of you out takes it to the next level. You might never get any sense out of your siblings about it either, because she's done a number on them as well.

Talking of children who don't love their mothers, have a look at this - the letter writer is definitely one of us

Yeti your therapist has correctly identified that your father poses a danger of acting abusively towards your children. Your mother is his enabler and IMO enablers can't be trusted because they will always prioritise the feelings of the person they're enabling. Your kids aren't safe with your dad, and they're not safe with your mum because she won't protect them from your dad. You don't have to and shouldn't facilitate contact with your mother unless you have very good evidence that that has changed. But she's not changing, she can't even commit to keeping off the subject of your siblings.
I would imagine she's trying to spark the interest of your kids in their cousins so that she can get them to put pressure on you to see your siblings again. Then they can get on with treating you like shit again and as long as you don't say anything and keep a smile plastered on your face your mother can resume her fantasy of being at the centre of a loving, happy family. Fuck that!

Just leave the parcel at the post office, it'll get returned eventually. If your mother asks about it you can say to her that she's welcome back in your lives when she can respect your very reasonable conditions. Any woman who was really an innocent party to their kids suffering abuse (and not fully caught up in the whole dysfunctional shitshow) would bite your hand off for a chance like that.

Are your kids old enough to understand what a bully is? You don't have to go into what the bullying behaviour was. I think it is fine to model to them that if someone is a bully you can choose how to respond to that, and you can choose not to spend time with them - it's not necessary to "stand up" to them or to have it out with them or whatever, and it's certainly not necessary to try to be friends with someone who is repeatedly horrible to you.

great letter that you linked to @Toomuch!
I remember the last straw moment with both parents and it was always to do with their treatment of my children
How good it feels to take control and say 'enough, I am done with you'
'YOU SHALL NOT PASS'
(Channeling gandalf there🧙‍♂️)

Everyone who replied - I am reading carefully your replies and I thank you so much for caring and for validating my feelings. It is hard to read some of it. We collected the parcel - there was cash and a bundle of clothes for my daughter only. My son was quite hurt. I still find my go-to is a constant defence of their behaviour in my head. But I am paying attention. I wrote a reply then deleted it before it was sent. This is hard. Thanks again and so much love for those of you who have posted your own awful experiences.

I sometimes use this thread to get ‘permission’ not to do things when I’m wavering. I use you all as my quasi parent.

Oh Yeti she’s doing the divide and rule trick on them now.

It’s hard xxx

@Yeti
The problem (imo) with the detailed reply is that it sends her the message that she is worth the time and effort taken to think about it and to do it.
she will receive it in the manner of a headmistress who receives your written assignment and then delightedly destroyes it with her red pen
You do not have to account for yourself or explain yourself, you can be cursory and dismissive because that's what she deserves

Yeti

Would charity shop the clothes and give the money to a charity that you personally support. You need nothing from your mother and she is actively trying to harm your children emotionally (favouring one over the other is a common tactic beloved of narcissists).

Do not at all reply to your mother Yeti, no good will come of doing so.

From today's Grauniad:-

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/27/i-wish-id-told-dad-how-much-i-hated-him-when-children-ditch-their-parents

This article, and in particular the comments, will probably resonate with many of you.

Good to see you back @toomuchtooold :)