"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
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July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
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March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you - everyone - for your messages of support. They are a great comfort.

I have the fortitude to deal with this now, something I could not have done before I found this thread - the support and the collective wisdom of you all has been a revelation. Thank you.

Stay strong, all of you. I'll be back soon. 💐

Hello again, I posted a few months ago and since then things have just gone from bad to worse with my parents. My father lost his temper with me after sending me a video on forgiveness and told me he was done listening to my insanity. I blocked him from WhatsApp and felt immediate relief.

My mother has been posting passive aggressive memes and articles on Facebook - my sister joined in and they are publicly liking and commenting on each other’s posts. All the while she was sending me private messages asking what she’s done wrong, and things like “have a great week” and “I’ll call you soon” and telling me she’s sent money in the post and could I let her know when it arrives. So I blocked them both on Facebook too. This is long overdue. I felt instant relief and now a weird sense of panic. Of course this is a brief version of all the shit that’s been going on but I’m just so sad that they were so unable to offer me any acknowledgement of my feelings.

It’s only occurred to me recently, but when I told my dad some of the experiences I suffered at the hands of my brother as a child (abuse, my counsellor named it) his only response was “you’ve broken me”.

When I sent him an article on adult sibling bullying he was furious that the author didn’t have a google CV. Then said “I suppose I bullied you because I sent you to a private school.”

That’s not a normal response is it? I needed so badly for one of them to say something like, “yes that was awful and should never have happened” but they never will.

@YetiAnotherName I don't have many words but I just want to say I hear you. I'm sorry they've just completely ignored and invalidated your feelings and made you to be the bad guy here. I totally understand how you feel, and no - that's not a normal reaction but these are clearly not normal people.

Your mother being so passive-agressive publicly while privately "checking in" and sending money (bribery!) is just so infuriating.

How long ago did you block your father and then your mother/sister? Do you have any other siblings? (Sorry I haven't been on the thread long).

or or both

I have a brother, no contact since I left home. Haven’t spoken to sister for about 10 years. Finally blocked my dad a month ago and my mum yesterday. Sister was putting messages on my mums page and on her public settings (we aren’t fab friends) about mental health being no excuse for bad behaviour.

Amazingly, my mental health has been better this year than for a long time. They wouldn’t know that though as I don’t discuss it with any of them . Maybe now I am well enough to have the strength to let them go.

Thanks for your kindness. Thankfully I have a good dh who knows breaking contact is the best thing, but has never once pushed me in any direction. I think I’d be dead without him.

Wow that is rough, I am so sorry!

I hope you have a fabulous group of friends/partner/pets/children to support you and bring you joy?

The old "you must be crazy". No! I may have mental health problems but I'm saner than the lot of you!

Hi @Yeti, sorry to hear about all the shit you're having to cope with
when I told my dad some of the experiences I suffered at the hands of my brother as a child (abuse, my counsellor named it) his only response was “you’ve broken me”
on hearing of somone else's suffering his first and only impulse is how it affects him, the fact that you suffered abuse as a child is water off a ducks back, his only thought is that you have somehow dis-honoured (?) him by speaking about the dysfunction in the family.
He's very defensive though isnt he, makes me wonder if he knows deep down he's on thin ice?
Bucking fastards

@True
what maybe I need to think about it that what's right for me might not be right for him
I'm inclined to read that as 'we are not at all aligned and there is no mutually acceptable compromise'
I might take it as permission to say 'fuck off forever you bastard' to him.
Just keep subtly winding the fucker up until he blows his top and everyone see's he's a madman?
( apols for my facetiousness )

@Ulterego I like your style!

I do like taking the path of virtuous calm and reason, as it's so totally alien to him and somehow winds him up more. Yes, I love his line "something you might want to think about" as if I've not really considered the impact this decision would have and have just been really impulsive and will rein it all back in when I come to my senses. No chance at all that this is a considered decision that I've been weighing up for years, no siree!

Thinking of you @SingingLily

Yes, I love his line "something you might want to think about"
memorise it and use it 'against' him at every available opportunity:o

I know, I know counterproductive and only adds fuel to the fire, but oh the FUN FUN FUN I coulda had if only I was in a position to grow a MASSIVE pair 20 years ago.
I could have tortured that bitch with a few careful word in the right places....
(now I'm sounding like I want to join the pigs)

Thinking of you SingingLily

@YetiAnotherName you’re family sound like a total mare. I’m glad you have found a supportive partner; it makes all the difference xx
I need some advice about how to proceed with the current situation please.
So, in a nutshell, have had no contact from parents in 2 weeks since they got all offended about dh asking them not to call him a shit in front of the kids. I since seen the psychiatrist who thinks my stepfather is a safeguarding threat because of his temper and previous violence, she says my mother cannot/will not stand up to him so cannot be guaranteed to protect the kids. Obviously the fact they have said that they ‘won’t allow’ dd to treat them like this (ie telling us what they said, which they flatly deny even happening) now has her singled out (in my mind, as I know how they operate) as a target.
I may be being a bit hysterical about all this but I can only base my worries on past experience.
Anyways, getting to the point, we have (me and dh) decided that we think it would be better for kids not to go to my parents on mon and tues after school anymore, starting now. So we’ve told the kids, and made arrangements with work etc but so far have not yet told my mother and stepfather. They virtually live at their static caravan 60 miles away and come back on a min to have kids after school. Has anyone got any advice on how to broach the subject? I feel like I need to let them know but it’s going to be taken as an attack, which it actually isn’t, I just want to protect the kids from any potential exposure to his vile temper, as the warning lights are sounding from this incident that he has the potential to ‘start’ with my dd. How do I tell them? 😖
Oh and a side note; my dd said that my stepfather has requested to follow her in instagram. My mother has been following her since her account was set up last year but he sent her a request a few days ago. What’s his game there then?!

You are not at all hysterical about either of them, if anything you have underreacted in the past re them due to their conditioning to accept the crap from them as normal because that is all you knew. A good rule of thumb is that if they are too toxic/difficult/batshit etc for you to deal with, its the same deal for your kids too.

However nicely you tell them be it by phone or letter, it will be taken as an attack because toxic people like them like nothing more than a fight and or the last word. Give them facts (we are now using alternative childcare as this works better for us as a family) and nothing more and certainly do not JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) with them either.

The fact your mother is already following her is worrying in terms of using her to get back at you as her parents. They need to be blocked from gaining access to any and all of your family's social media. Tell your DD if you have not already to deny this man access to her account and her grandmother now needs to be blocked too. Infact the best thing to do here is to use it as little as possible if not completely remove yourselves from it; social media is an ideal tool for narcissists and other types of abusers to use on and against their targets.

I would not actually want to restart contact and you need to continue to protect your children from any and all their malign influences. Their silence is another form of emotional abuse and manipulation designed to get you to capitulate. The responsibility for their silence is all theirs (NOT yours) and both of them to my mind are just as bad as one another. Your mother has enabled this man and has always chosen him over you; she is inherently selfish too.

It is not your fault your mother is an enabler and it is not your fault either that both of them are like this. You did not cause that to happen.

I’m totally unqualified to give anyone advice, but I think you listen to the psychiatrist and keep your children safe. How old is your DD? Does she want her grandparents on Instagram? Your dh is 100% in the right to ask them not to denigrate him in front of his children. If they aren’t able to respect that, you can’t have them looking after his children.

I agree with Attila that you shouldn't stress about how you put this news across - I know it's easier said than done but what I mean is, no matter how nicely/neutrally/kindly you convey the news, they will see it as an attack (especially him by the sounds of it). So try not to waste too much emotional energy on this bit: just tell them this is what you're doing now, if you like thank them for their help in the past to soften the blow, and then keep your emotional energy in tact for the inevitable repercussions. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Remember you have the validation of a professional for those moment of doubt - trust it!

Thanks everyone for your thoughts/advice. I think that I do need to let them know, and make it so that they can’t force me into admitting that I don’t feel the kids are safe with them. So what I’m thinking of saying is

Thanks for all the help with having the kids. Starting the new school year they are going to just come home after school; I have time I need to take back from my Thursday early start so it makes sense to take it on a Monday and Tuesday as I have to use it by the end of the month. This also means we have more flexibility for when you see us, as in you you are not tied to coming back from the van on those specific days to look after them. We can meet up as and when suits x

What do you think? I know I’m justifying but I’m trying to soften the blow and I feel sick even sending that. I am anticipating a cold response as they will think I’m being a bitch. I feel like I do need to put an excuse in cos I’m trying to avoid them saying ‘but we love having them and want it to continue’ cos it will force me to say ‘no’ Honestly I’m like a wreck when it comes to them!

Hi Marmaduke

re your message to your mother and stepfather:-

"Thanks for all the help with having the kids. Starting the new school year they are going to just come home after school; I have time I need to take back from my Thursday early start so it makes sense to take it on a Monday and Tuesday as I have to use it by the end of the month. This also means we have more flexibility for when you see us, as in you you are not tied to coming back from the van on those specific days to look after them. We can meet up as and when suits x"

Do not JADE these people, this message is also doing this. Its also waffling and you must not waffle; it needs to be brief (as brief as possible) and to the point. You also seem very much in fear, obligation and guilt still with regards to the pair of them. You do not in any case state that we can meet up as and when suits; again this is more FOG.

I would simply state that your children now will return to their home or one of their friends houses after the school day because this now works for you better as a family so their previous babysitting is no longer needed. Any other detail is flannel, justifying your actions to them and therefore unnecessary.

I was wondering if it would be ok if I asked a question. After a number of incidents over a large number of years I am now NC with my 'D'M. Since making this decision I have felt like a new person and my confidence has really grown. I haven't told her I am NC and since making the decision she has sent me 2/3 texts which I have ignored. Just general - hope you had a good holiday etc. She sent my son a birthday present recently. I opened it and took it to the charity shop. I'm wondering what anybody else would do in this situation. It brings it back when these percels arrive bit I l'm not sure I should tell her to stop as this will be what she wants. My DC agree with my decision. Many thanks

@attila what would you suggest, specifically? I am listening to an audio version of out of the FOG, got it yesterday so I’m hoping it makes me feel stronger when it comes to dealing with them. I know is flannel and JADE, it’s pathetic isn’t it? But I feel like I can’t cope with the rage that a curt message would invoke, I just don’t feel strong enough. I am physically ill at the thought of them being angry with me and hurt. It’s a fucking mess ☹️

Hi Marmaduke I just want to echo what Attila has said, your first explanation was a weak and waffly (sorry I don't like to be mean to you, but it is) as soon as you open your mouth and start with this they will know that you're just a weak child and they can ride roughshod over you, just say you've made alternative arrangements do not be drawn into any kind of JADE-ing.

explaining and softening the blow puts you in a subordinate position relative to them, they will take it as commissioned to steam in and dominate
you have to stand your ground do not prostrate yourself before them, that is what you are doing with your wobbly, waffly weak explanation.
Every explanation is a chink in your armour, a foothold that they can use to scale your defences, present them with a solid wall of NO
Do not explain do not apologise, why would you you are an adult, you make your own decisions, you do not answer to them.
Did your heels in and enjoy your power

Ok so, how to cope with this rage, rage is thier weapon, the sword that they wield when you won't kow-tow, how to neutralise this weapon?

These two will rage no matter what message you sent them so you may as well send one without JADE or any other flannelling detail in it. They are also incapable of feeling hurt but they are certainly not past wanting to hurt you and put the boot in as and when they feel like it. They also hurt your kids in hurting you. These two were not good parents to you when you were growing up and fundamentally they have not at all changed. They are also crap as grandparents.

I would simply state that from the start of September (the names of) your children will be coming home because this works better for us as a family unit. They are older now and need more time for homework and to socialise with their friends; these are things that you would also regard as very important to their overall wellbeing.

@Flowersandthorns

You're handling things perfectly, the gifts are clearly an attempt to get you to contact her. Any kind of communication will impart to her that her actions are having an effect, to the point you're contacting her, at which point she'd likely escalate. Keep doing what you're doing, and really love the charity shop idea!