"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@peachsquish I bet she was raging she didn’t get to swan about getting all the ‘mother of the bride’ attention. Ha ha. How dare you go and do what YOU wanted for your wedding without thinking about what SHE wanted. I love how they like bang on about all our shortcomings whilst failing to see their own.
The other week my brother needed to renew his car insurance . I looked on a comparison site and got a quote for about £210. His existing insurer wanted £305. While I was trying to ask him stuff to complete the online quote my stepfather got annoyed with me for, wait for it...

1. talking to loud And 2)talking too fast. My mother backed him up saying, ‘remember your brother is dyslexic’?!

Anyway, following day, brothers car insurance was completed, stepfather had fucked off the quote I got and stayed with original insurer, so my brother was £95 worse off for the exact same product. And all cod that total bell end cant bear to not be in control of literally everything. God I hate that man I really do😡 sorry to rant in here but it helps to get it out my head x

@MarmadukeM sounds like a total control-freak fruit loop! Ugh! Sympathy to you.

@peachsquish I think we all know that feeling of having waited too long and at the same time regretting doing it at all. These are not easy decisions but we're all just doing the best we can.

Dad was admitted to hospital this week, emergency admission. He is in a bad way. Middle sister, who has always presented such a lovely caring persona to her wide circle of friends but has always been a complete and utter bitch to her own family, left a snappy little voicemail for me and the same for DSis.

I messaged middle sister to say I intended to visit Dad at 4pm, effectively giving them all two hours notice. After about ten minutes, she messaged back to say "he will be alone at 4pm" and they had told him I would be there to see him. They must have all decided to scurry out of the way.

When I walked in, Dad was only just conscious but his face lit up. I sat with him, held his hand and told him I love him. He told me not to be so kind to him because he didn't deserve it. We just sat quietly together for an hour; he slipped in and out of consciousness. There was no mention of M other than at one point, he said, "You have a hard row to plough, you know". I just said, "I know, Dad, but let's not think about that now. That's for another day", and patted his hand.

I have absolutely no intention of ploughing any row, hard or otherwise, with M. She can go to hell. She has shortened his life with her stupidity and ignorance because she nagged him into overriding the advice of his doctors. He has been in unnecessary pain for the past year because of her relentless insistence that she knew best. And yes, I know that Dad is a weak man who should have stood up for himself. I know he colluded with her madness and thus made himself part of the problem.

Still. He's my Dad.

DSis is away on holiday. Middle sister's curt little voicemail had registered but not recorded so DSis knew something was wrong but didn't know exactly what until I rang. She will get a flight home early and stay at ours so she can see him, hopefully before it's too late. She wants to do this.

I've no idea what the next few days will bring but DSis will be with me. We'll manage.

When middle sister rang and left her voicemail, my phone was in the den. I heard the spooky sound of the theme tune from the Twilight Zone but forgot it was the ringtone I'd assigned to her. Well, it's been nearly a year since we were in contact.

DH sprang out of the den like a scalded cat. He thought it was Alexa. He thought Amazon was spying on him. 😁

Oh Lily that must be so fucking hard. I'm sorry. A hard row to plough indeed.

I remember in my grandma's last hours I sat down and held her hand and she said "Furiosa?" and seemed to recognize me a bit. If you can be with your dad in those final hours then please do. I sat there and read bits out of AA Milne! She loved to read those stories and poems to me and it was my privelege to read them back to her

Ah Singing I’m so glad you’ve been given the time you wished for. I’m sending you strength for what is to come. X

Hi again everyone - would love some advice.
NFather has replied, not with response to letter, but asking "Who or What" has triggered this, since we've spent nice times together recently, so things seem slightly messed up. Stating that any relationship based on acrimony are destructive to everyone, and hoping we can sort this out.
I am reading this as the start of the Who is manipulating you/these aren't your real thoughts/you've gone crazy, let's sweep it under the rug.
At the moment I'm thinking no response is necessary to this, but I am definitely feeling the guilt and obligation to reply. I appreciate it has come out the blue for him, and I do hate that, but I can't help it: just because I missed my window telling him all this stuff in my twenties I should now never say it? I feel like if I reply now, the conversation will focus on the rightness/wrongness of me sending the letter, not the letter contents themselves. At the same time I would like that this NC be temporary, not permanent, so I don't want to damage the relationship more than it already is... Argh!
Any thoughts and similar experiences would be much appreciated.
TrueRefuge

True

No response from you is indeed necessary. Further correspondence is a waste of time and effort and you will further end up going around in circles. Telling him all this in your 20s would have had the same effect i.e. none either. Such people do not change and it is not your fault he is like this (his own family did that lot of damage to him and he chose too to also adopt the low road).

I would not bother replying to your dad's missive because there is really no point in doing so. All he cares about is his own opinion and yours is still discounted and otherwise ignored. You need to let go completely of the FOG that still envelops you; it is really NOT possible to have a relationship with someone who is a narcissist. You have been trained as well by this person and any enablers (who are really their secondary abusers) to serve them whilst putting your own self and feelings last. Also you cannot reason with such an unreasonable person, they are not ever open to any reasoned argument.

Why would you like this period of no contact (its really low contact rather than no contact) to not be permanent?. Its not you who damaged this relationship, there was never any relationship to be damaged in the first instance as it is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

You would not have tolerated this from a friend, he is no different. Abusers as well can be "nice" sometimes but its really all a part of their nice/nasty cycle of abuse which is also a continuous one.

SingingLily

You are in my thoughts.

@True, I agree that looks like an attempt to deflect away from the content of the letter, I wonder if responding with something like:
'these things have been on my mind and I need to discuss them with you' or 'I need answers from you'
Would work?
I feel that's like saying 'you want to know the reason why? Well, the reason why is because I want to' , could that be a way of responding to the question but steering him back to the Central issue that you want to focus on?

.....having read Atilla's post I can see that no response is probably the best and 'strongest' response though @True

@SingingLily sending you love x I’m glad you got that time with him and, whilst it may have been an understatement saying you had a hard row to plough I think the fact he did make this acknowledgment is a positive thing and something you won’t forget xx
@TrueRefuge I can see what the others are saying but for me personally, if I was feeling really uncomfortable with the response I would possible consider replying, in a very ‘to the point’ way, so what is it exactly that has prompted you writing to him? Was it therapy you’ve had? A life event? Maybe you could just state the facts of it? As emotionless as possible. But I do think the others on here give sounder advice than me as I’m just finding my way myself with all this, but I know how I’d feel if I had received that reply x

True
What Attila said.

We’re all programmed to respond and resolve, it’s so lovely to give yourself permission to do nothing. Go and do something nice instead.

Hmm, wrt @True, I think that asking you what prompted your letter is a way to attack and undermine the legitimacy of said letter, he's trying to get himself to a position of 'nevermind what's in the letter young lady, your reasons for sending it aren't even valid!!'
Just an attempt to take the power away from you, control the narrative etc, imo

Thank you all @AttilaTheMeerkat, @Ulterego, @MarmadukeM, @HeroComplex.

After I posted, my DP received a message from him saying we need to cancel our attendance at an important family event that's happening next year due to my "horrendous letter". He's obviously been raging over night since he sent the email to me. And is now attempting to sabotage said event to get me back in line. Ulterego, your "Young lady" line is spot on!

I don't want that event to be threatened/sabotaged so I emailed him to say I think we can all be civil and there's no need at this stage for anybody to pull out. That although I appreciate this is a shock for him, now is simply the time for me to say how I feel, and that I'd be back in touch next year.

I don't expect it to do anything, but I needed to know that I had done something to prevent the family event being sabotaged. If he continues his campaign, I'll have to get in touch with my relative whose event it is, and let them know, but I was hoping to keep them out of it as it doesn't really concern them. However, I expect sabotaging this event somehow to be NF's next power move, as a way of taking control of the narrative.

If anything, his reactions so far have only completely validated my need to have sent this letter. In 36 hours he's sent three communications and not one has acknowledged ME: and some of it has completely invalidated my feelings by insinuating I'm crazy, being brainwashed or on drugs, and basically that any negative feelings cannot possibly be my own (as per usual).

Attila I do realise I am still in the FOG: I'd be lying to say my little inner child doesn't hope that he'll turn around and say how wrong he was and he's sorry. But I am aware that that won't happen; I just can't change the feelings. I'm hoping therapy will help me get some acceptance, and of course the fall-out of this letter will be a big driver in how our relationship moves forward, if at all.

He is choosing to Sabotage the family event, and trying to make it your fault = amateur attempt at spin.
He is rattled, firing off emails like that, you can relax sit back and reply at your leisure, you've got the whip hand now😊👍
Maybe just don't engage with him over the family event thing, brush it aside it's irrelevant?

@SingingLily, so sorry for what you're going through. It sounds like you had some nice moments with your Dad. Sending you warm wishes at such a difficult time

oh hold on I think I've misunderstood ....he's saying that you can no longer go to the family event because you've sent him this letter?
So stopping you from going is a punishment for daring to 'step to him' daring to challenge him or question his authority, he is the alpha male and he will not accept challenges from anyone
(Good luck with that grandad 😂🤣)

Thanks Ulterego, you're a star!
I've said my piece now and have set up a diverting folder so any emails go to a specific folder rather than my inbox so yes I think will attempt to step back now and not get into the circular replying and JADEing.

True
I think he’ll deflect now. I predict a health crisis? Or a hoovering from a relative, ‘your poor dad is beside himself’ type of thing.

Hold your boundaries.

We all long, with all our hearts, for parents to love and protect us. That’s why we’ve bent ourselves out of shape to achieve it. The grief of losing that hope is hard.

True

re this part of your comment:-
"I've said my piece now and have set up a diverting folder so any emails go to a specific folder rather than my inbox so yes I think will attempt to step back now and not get into the circular replying and JADEing".

Good. No response from you is a powerful one. You really do not want to get sucked back into his dysfunctional world (you only need to read recent posts from peach to see how ongoing correspondence can and does go very badly).

I note too that he sent your DP a message re not now being allowed to attend a family event. That was deliberate also on his part. I would also now expect to see a health scare/tests for a previously unknown condition and or an ongoing campaign against you using relatives (who he would like to use as the flying monkeys).

Toxic people like nothing more than to attack and to have the last word; they really do use such nicely and carefully worded letters against their target.

He has replied with all the typical rubbish, I won't list it here but insistence that we can't both be at the family event, that he has already told relative about the circumstances (triangulation starts) and the final cherry on top, the accusation of selfishness (oh, the irony): that his only observation about my letter that it's all about me, "what I want, what I feel, what I need" and what maybe I need to think about it that what's right for me might not be right for him (threat to withdraw his "love"??). I will not be replying.

Have messaged relative to explain and express regret that they have been dragged into it and hope we can keep this separate from our relationship. I'm sure another few days of no reply or apology from me will see NF training the flying monkey though.

Feeling like now I can actually grieve the father I never had - the past few years have been fine only because I suppressed all my true feelings. It tricked me into thinking maybe NF isn't an N, maybe he was just stressed, maybe he's changed. Now I know for sure that he has not changed, and can process the grief that will inevitably bring. But at least now I know and I'm thankful for that knowledge.

Thanks all again for your support the past couple of days. Will be interesting to see if health crisis is next, or flying monkeys, or a raging letter back to me? It's like narcissism bingo!

The only game of bingo that no one want a full house 😂

So true!!