"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

*Ulterego, I'm so sorry for what you experienced as a child, and for the awful, invalidating reactions of both your parents. Have you seen/are you seeing a therapist to process those feelings? It would make total sense that you don't really know how to go about it - the shame I can only imagine you feel, and that you don't matter. But you absolutely did, and still do: you were a tiny child who was completely and utterly innocent in what happened, and adults failed you three times over. It's no reflection on your worth at all. Please know that

@peachsquish good god they are relentless! Were they this controlling of you as well? You must be so proud to have raised a son who at such a young age (I guess 20/21 since on gap year) to have such a secure level of self-esteem and self-worth!

@peachsquish sounds like typical response when challenged, trying to turn it all around. They are so modest eh? Talking about all the good deeds they do for others. The ‘poor us’ response when you try to challenge them is harder to deal with than the fury isn’t it? Shame on you for trying to have an adult discussion with them, eh 🙄😂

Ulterego that’s appalling, what a horrific thing to do to you.

You can still go to the police, it’s not too late. Is the person still in your parents circle?

@Hero and @True, thank you for your responses the validation does help me. 😊
Rationally I know that what happened both the abuse and my parents responses was very bad but still inside there's a feeling that it didn't matter because it was only me, although I do have a sense that that is a projection of other people that I have internalized.
specifically I feel as if my father deliberately crafted and calibrated his response, he knew that because I was shocked and humiliated (and clearly at that time a very downtrodden person with low self-esteem)I wouldn't be able to rationally analyse the situation. his response 'felt' kind in comparison to my mother's because he wasn't raging at me but really it was an iron fist in a velvet glove.
I have no idea what happened to the paedophile in question but I did hear that he was suspected of abusing other children too when he was an adult, I'm sure that all the adults have dismissed it as just children playing games and experimenting but we're talking about an adolescent boy and an infant child 😔 there was a 10-year age gap.
I also suspect that my father views me as a sexually promiscuous child who somehow asked for it 😔

@Peach, it looks like a verbal wrestling match with pigs, they are relishing the opportunity to tell you exactly what they think of you, they saw your letter as a gift, a fantastic opportunity to put you straight and tell you how you are wrong.
Everything is spun, they don't see you at all.
trying to get any sense out of them is like trying to get blood out of a stone, you might just as well say 'oi shut it knob 'ead' and walk away 😣

Your father would view you as an object, not a real person. If he viewed you as a person he would be required to love and protect you and would feel great pain if you suffered. He has put you in danger, been complicit in the abuse and justified it to himself by placing all the responsibility with you. He’s completely and utterly to blame. He should be prosecuted, quite honestly.

Sorry, that was for Ulterego

(No wonder you live with rage, it’s understandable. But it’s not good for you. X)

Thank you Hero for your insights and your support 🙏
I don't want to say too much about the circumstances but I was left with adult relatives who then left me in the care of the teenage boy at times, in my memory it's as if he was trying to pretend that I was the same age as him, I was 6 and he was trying to pretend that I was a 16-year-old, he wanted me to play the role of his girlfriend.
And there was also a weird time when I was coerced by an older girl into pretending I was her boyfriend, I was deeply uncomfortable with it but because she was older than me I was flattered by her attention I wanted to please her.
I have never spoken about this before.
because some of the abuse happened when the older person was under the age of consent I feel as if it's too easy for the adults to just dismiss it as children playing games and make me out to be some sort of snowflake for complaining 😔
I suppose if asked father would say that he didn't realise that this had happened, I did disclose to my mother when I was a child (I was little older than and the abuse had stopped I think) she made no comment and it was never mentioned again.
There was no protectiveness whatsoever, there was no apology that this happened to me, I had a little spark of hope that my father at least would be angry on my behalf, but I wasn't surprised when he wasn't.
I do wonder if he has spent the past 30 years wondering if there would be a knock on the door, especially with scandal after scandal in the news in these past decades.

Ulter
You’ve lived with this a long time all by yourself? You’ve been very brave, I think.

I’m fairly sure there’s a support organisation for adult survivors of abuse, if you wanted to explore that avenue.
Anyone else here able to help?

I know it sounds daft but it's only in the past couple of years that I've realised what my father really is, he's such a mild-mannered generous 'kindly' person that it's hard to see the wolf inside the sheep's clothes.
I have thought about getting support or counselling thank you Hero and I will keep that in mind as an option, but just speaking about it openly on here and getting people's real, normal reactions is validating and helps me to move forward 😊

I’m very glad to hear that x

💐Ulterego
I can't find the words but I'm thinking of you.

Ulterego

I believe you and am thinking of you too. The abuse is entirely the fault of the perpatraitors, you are not in any way at fault here. They abused their power and control and this is all on them.

NAPAC may be helpful to you here napac.org.uk/

Thank you Singinglily😊
If you're damaged and dysfunctional you tend to attract similar people into your life, so you rarely encounter anyone who is able to give you a healthy and compassionate response to what happened, the only feedback you get is toxic feedback from the predators who could smell that you are damaged, they have no interest in making you healthy and whole they want to exploit you and keep that wound open.
Here I feel as if I'm getting feedback that helps me to see things clearly, I know that ultimately I should seek professional help.

Thank you Atilla😊
I am reading the NAPAC site

purplefig
It's tricky because I'm actually fairly close with parents and for the most part do get along with them these days. And while there was a fair bit of EA growing up, there isn't now and it's hard to feel I'm not exaggerating / misremembering. They're pretty different people these days. But I for sure have issues to work on as a result of my childhood and I'm really determined not to continue the cycle with my own children
This is fairly close to me. There is still problems like my dad's sulking and some comments and things. But since it's not as bad as when I was a child it does make me question was it as bad and am I misremembering?

Sorry to go back to something a few pages ago but this, really stuck out at me.

Herocomplex
What you said about your relationship with your parents improved when you pregnant and your son was little. And it starting to become tricky when you began to do more adventurous things, and they felt less in control again. It then got more and more difficult until it became completely untenable this year. Is there any things I should look out for? Early warning signs etc? What age did it start at if you don't mind me asking. I'm really worried about this happening.

@Ulterego I’m sorry you went through all that and that the people who should’ve protected you did not. Their response just added insult to injury. I’m sure you will have been conditioned over the years to doubt yourself, it makes it difficult to make sense of things and to know even how to feel about things. I hope you get some help to sort things through, sorry I don’t have any advice but I send you love Xx

@PandaAtTheZoo I have had similar situation as you, we kind of had a period where things were relatively cordial but the wheels are starting to come off big time now as my oldest is 12 and has started to not like being in their company due to the way they go on. I’m not sure where we are going from this point in but as a pp said to me it’s when the kids start to really have their own thoughts, wishes and opinions we hit trouble. We have had years of learning to live with their ‘ways’ but our kids have not. I am currently on the receiving end of the ‘silent treatment’ coming up to 2 weeks now since my DH politely asked them not to call him a little shit in front of the kids. Can’t say I’m arsed tbh, I know my stepfather wants to move away from the area and it’s only the kids that keep them here. I’m taking the ‘don’t get in the ring with the pig advice. If they want to move away then they can (I’ll pay for the fucking removals van 😂) but I’m not engaging in. a big kick off so they can justify moving and turn it round onto blaming me and DH for it. Been there and done that. As others have said, these people are horribly predictable. But they can’t play their stupid games with us if we don’t join in eh? X

@Ulterego, I'm so glad you feel validated here. I think a compassionate, trauma-focused therapist would be really valuable for you, if or when you feel ready. You might even be able to get it on the NHS based on what you've been through, although of course waiting times could be very long. The NAPAC website will hopefully be a good support too, and of course us lot here

I have had a reply to my email. NF is very shocked, has read my full letter and will not reply now as he is too upset. I will get a reply in a few days.

I'm trying to remain neutral as to what that reply could entail, but I know what I'm predicting (and I'm sure it's what you're all predicting too!)

Thank you @Marmaduke and @True😊

True, in regards to your father's response, I noticed that he doesn't give an'I'm sorry that you're upset I hope we can resolve this' response, rather it is about him, he has been 'wounded' (is shocked & upset)and he needs to recover, so he's the important one here in his mind.
making you wait for his response; I view this as a power move, he will respond at his convenience you are beholden to him and not the other way round.
I would say that he is positioning this letter as an injury that you have inflicted upon him and he will respond to it in those terms.

@Ulterego - it's like one mind

@Marmaduke, exactly, once you see the game it's like a magic eye picture reveal, you can then choose to step away, think above and ahead of them, anticipate them and slip from their grasp

Hi panda I’d say listen to your gut feelings, hold your boundaries.

I could write a post about all the things that happened but it might not make any sense. It was an accumulation of things.

An example? We lived about three hours from them, we’d arrive, big hello’s. Then my DF would take me to one side and ask if the traffic had been heavy, what had we been doing that we couldn’t have set off earlier, why the delay? It just echoed the way he’d dealt with me when I was a child, that disappointment that I hadn’t done the right thing, reminding me whose agenda was the main one. I never dreamed of backchatting him, just wanted to appease him, so I just apologised. Sounds silly? It wasn’t to me, I felt reminded of my place and on the back foot right from the beginning. Every time, even when we got there in record time, and never to DH.

It’s those feelings coming up again that should serve as a warning. Those echoes of control, domination and boundary ignoring behaviour.

The appeal of happy families/look what an amazing GP I am is very strong. Be wary, watch out for the little warnings.

My DM said very early on how jealous she felt of my MIL spending time with my DS. I took that on as MY problem, when it really wasn’t. I’m not responsible for her feelings! FOG!!!!

to everyone on here. Reading the thread I can see it's not just me. So many things are familiar.
I feel so guilty that I've not done this sooner, and like a fraud when you praise my son as I haven't had the courage to stand up to my mum before.
Ironically this time it wasn't her behaviour that did it, I always thought that if she got too bad my dad would say something, like he would on occasion when I was a child. So the horror to see that he was such an active enabler was really great.
I always knew that he was weak and had anger issues. Even now I can tell if he is in a bad mood from different rooms due to way he puts things down. His face used to change as a child I called it the ugly look. But as he was so much nicer than her he was my favourite.
Last night I was stressed over the email and today I'm angry at all the lies in it. My phone behaviour she finds so bad was just saying no or no she's busy when they asked if my daughter was coming round. The crap about it was his decision when she sent him so many emails after the meeting, telling him how grateful he should be for the offer.
All the digs over the years. I eloped she got a copy of my marriage certificate and kept it so "that when you are being nice I can remember what you're really like". She obviously didnt check it that much cos I stole it one day from her house!

It’s taken me 50 years peach to stand up for myself.
No need to feel guilty. You’ve done nothing wrong.

They have though.