"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Rosamundos, I agree with TrueRefuge. The very fact that you are even questioning yourself about how you relate to your little boy tells me that you are nothing like your father.

People like your father and my mother have no such doubts. That springs from their complete lack of empathy - always a dead giveaway.

My mother is the perfect mother. She would tell me so quite sharply whenever she felt I needed reminding. She would also claim, with the utmost seriousness, that she has the perfect family - even though her children are so divided that we can't bear to be in the same room as each other and even though for as long as I can remember, at least one and sometimes two of us have been NC with her.

You are already trying to be loving and fair and consistent with your little son - something your father never was to you when you were growing up. All credit to you.

It’s so extraordinary Singing that someone would think they were a perfect anything, and would need to remind you. It’s so ridiculous!

And yet we took it, didn’t argue, just looked at ourselves. Now I would say ‘but if you’re so perfect in your mothering, why am I so flawed?’

Except I wouldn’t because there’s no point!

@herocomplex that is very well put. Mine thinks she is a wonderful mother but the evidence suggests otherwise. They are not in touch with reality!

It's so messed up, isn't it? Not only has M never had any doubts about herself as a perfect wife and mother but she has a powerful self-image that doesn't quite match up to mundane reality.

I've told this story before on another thread but once, DH and I were shopping in town with my parents when M spotted a larger-than-lifesized photo of David Gandy in a display window, screeched to a halt and blurted out, "Well, I wish the father of my children had looked like that!!!" before going on to make loud appreciative remarks about his six-pack.

She was 81 at the time.

Dad looked as though he'd been smacked in the face with a wet fish. I didn't know where to put myself. Other shoppers looked shocked until DH, struggling to contain his amusement, mimed "Alzheimer's" at them, and so of course their expressions changed to sympathy and concern.

I apologise here and now to anyone struggling to look after a family member who really does have Alzheimer's. My mother doesn't. She's always said stuff like that.

Compare and contrast with the time that she took me to one side and whispered a "big,secret" that I wasn't allowed to tell anyone: "I need to tell you something because your Dad won't say anything. He's embarrassed to be seen with you because your legs are too thin. He's really ashamed by it".

I was six years old at the time. Because I wasn't allowed to tell anyone the "big secret", I worried myself endlessly about my abnormally thin legs (they weren't, by the way; it was designed to drive a wedge between my father and me) and how could I make them bigger or hide them.

Isn't she a charmer?

Oh crikey Singing. It’s that everyday mundane crap that makes you constantly alert for the next thing coming your way. Everything around you gives you the message that mums love you and want the best, so when she said that about your legs you know it hurts to hear it, but it must be true musn’t it? Those are the things that you carry.
The David Gandy thing is bizarre, the fact that you were all embarrassed because you knew she meant it. I can feel those feelings, remembering that mortification.

I was in a pub having a meal last year with my mother, we had soup, and the group on the next table said it looked really nice. She then proceeded to tell them how she makes soup, including bouillabaisse. They’d never heard of it, and were then treated to an in depth recipe. Their faces were a picture, they’d just been briefly friendly, but she can’t read the cues, so she just ploughs on talking at people. In the end I distracted her, and I saw them looking at each other, shaking their heads. She’s not an old woman.

We're just walk-on actors or moving props in the Amazing Stories of Their Lives, Hero. Not something a child should have to cope with at a stage in their life when they are so defenceless and so dependent on the goodwill of their parents.

I'm feeling a bit low today. My father sent me an email - first contact in nearly a year - simply saying "Truce? Dad". Oddly, he copied it to my DSis (almost certainly because she's the only one I care about so the only one with any influence over me) but - and this is significant - not to M. Usually, he copies M into all of his emails to prove he's not involved in any sort of "wicked conspiracy" against her (he's told me so on a number of occasions in the past).

DSis thinks he's on his way out and wants to make his peace. Clearly, though, he doesn't want M to know.

Now that is spectacularly messed up, on so many levels.

Oh Singing will you do anything? Are you tempted to just delete it? Will he try other methods of contact?

As we all know, it’s a softening up technique, there’s something else coming. Just because she’s not copied in doesn’t mean she’s not orchestrating it somehow does it?

He has no other means of contact, Hero. I have callblocker on my landline and he doesn't have a mobile phone anyway. He's too immobile to walk to a post box. Email is the only way.

I know what Attila would say. I have a great deal of respect for Attila. The truth is, half of me still longs for a chance to see my father. He was the only one who showed me any affection and we were close once. It was our closeness, I think, that prompted M to send me to Coventry in the first place and then take out her rage on my DSis and - this makes me so furious - on my two little nieces. I will never forgive her for that, nor him. He stood by and shrugged his shoulders and looked helpless, as always, while she rampaged around like an elderly toddler.

The other half of me wishes he'd stayed silent and stayed away from me. No good will come of it. If he is on his way out (and in some ways, it would be a blessed relief for him because he wouldn't have to put up with his shrieking harpy of a wife any longer) and I turned up, she would cause an awful scene (and relish every moment of it - oh, the drama!). If I stayed away, she would cause an awful scene anyway. Damned if I do, etc.

DH says he will support me to the hilt, whichever way. I think - no, I know - that he's itching to tell M exactly what he thinks of her. He won't mince his words either. DSis says she will support me either way.

For the moment, I'm just keeping busy while the rest of my brain works it out.

@Ulterego you very understandably want her to account for herself and explain her terrible behaviour, I would say that she very likely never will give you what you want.
The more common scenario is that the abusive parent wants contact and so at least you have some leverage ....you can (in theory) withhold contact until you get some answers, but with her you don't really seem to have any leverage?
I don't know maybe I'm going in totally the wrong direction here?

No, you're right. I guess in my head I want some weepy confessional where she explains her behaviour and it all has perfectly understandable reasons and then everything is wonderful afterwards but I know it wouldn't go that way. There is no leverage. I have a huge sense of guilt when I've not contacted her in a month and am constantly thing "what happens if something happens to her?" "what if she's hurt or upset by not hearing from you?" Having said that, one of my siblings commented to her about her never calling them and she responded with "the phone rings on both ends". Another sibling lived abroad for four years and she called twice in that time and didn't visit at all (despite taking other trips abroad).

Attila’s words are always apposite. I take her advice very seriously.

My DM stopped talking to me for several weeks when I was a teenager, because she was arguing with my Dad and I ‘was too similar to him’. She never said sorry, even though I’d done nothing.

If your Dad is dying is there anything you want to do?

I'd like to sit with him quietly on my own for ten minutes, Hero, hold his hand, tell him I love him and to be at peace. I'd hold in all the anger and misery and put him first. He's probably forgotten what that's like, to be put first. It would be the last kindness I could do for him.

It wouldn't happen that way, though. She would control all access to him. I will probably only find out at the last moment, or when it's too late, and only if middle sister lets DSis know. DSis would tell me straight away; they all know that. That's why it's a big "if".

God, I hate the strangulated method of communication in our family. DSis calls it "playing information arbitrage". M has always dripfed selected information to those currently in the golden circle, always on strict condition of secrecy.

On the other hand, I could contact GCHQ and see whether they usually help with this kind of thing

He's embarrassed to be seen with you because your legs are too thin
that's awful, horribly throwaway remark, such crass casual cruelty
she's like a vicious six year old

@SingingLily, sorry to hear you've been thrown by your Dad's email. NParents are just the gift that keep on giving! How long have you and your mother been NC, if you don't mind me asking?

It's still a rather strange email for him to send after a year? Just two words? Sorry if I'm out of line.

PS Yeh I agree with Ulterego, such a cruel way to treat a child (well, an adult even!). I believe your legs were perfect, like any 6-year old's! This stuff all makes me so sad: there really should be a bloody exam to be allowed to have children, and a government fund for future adult children of these useless excuses for parents to have therapy and undo the damage

We're just walk-on actors or moving props in the Amazing Stories of Their Lives
so very true!
I'm sorry you're going through this torture @SingingLily

Hi SingingLily,

re your comment:-
"M has always dripfed selected information to those currently in the golden circle, always on strict condition of secrecy".

My MIL has acted the same way to what you describe; I have always thought she would make a good case study for the likes of Dr Raj Persaud. I have never been in that golden circle and she made her late husband's death (he was a cover narcissist) all about her. Oh the fuss she made!.

A two word e-mail from your dad after a year of not hearing anything from him is somewhat odd and would also put my back/defences up. He is a weak man and has acted in the past most certainly as his wife's enabler. Is there an aunt or uncle on his side of the family that you could contact about his current condition?.

I wish you all the best with regards to your dad, you will go onto make the right decision for you.

And your legs were just fine at six years of age too.

Not at all out of line, TrueRefuge, you can ask anything you like! I've been NC for nearly a year now. Thank you to you and Ulterego and to Hero, of course, for your kindness and support.

You all understand - and that's such a comfort.

And thank you too, Attila, for your constant and reassuring presence. I always feel safer somehow when I know you are around. No, nobody on Dad's side now. His only brother died a few years ago but even if he was alive, hell would freeze over before I made contact with that man.

The only one I can talk to is my DSis and she would tell me straight away if she heard anything. We are both waiting, in that sense, because we can't do anything else. I'll just have to deal with whatever happens when it happens.

There was a Tanya Byron column in the Times yesterday, a woman had written in about her dad driving her young daughter despite her telling them she didn’t want him to. TB advised her to stop him, and said she should speak to her parents ‘adult to adult’. She said she might have to withdraw from them for a while, but cutting them off was wrong as it is a poor example of how to manage relationships.
It all sounded so obvious and simple. We all know how it should work.

Oh @Ulterego I think we share a father! It's amazing to see there are other people who have experienced this kind of parenting before. I have contact with mine but only in that occasionally I go and see my parents (as a unit), he’d never personally reach out to me. I think he knows there's no point. I’m lucky in this I guess.

Yes @Herocomplex I’m very fortunate. My sister ended up at university and we randomly met up (I’m talking 15 years go). It was like going for a drink with a stranger. We’re not ‘close’ as other siblings may be but in many ways she knows the depths of who I am. I’m so glad you have built a relationship with your sister, I think it’s important to not allow this to impact over multiple generations.

I admire your rational regarding the letter @TrueRefuge and thank you very much for your kind words x

Thank you @SingingLily that means a huge amount. Interestingly (or maybe awfully?) I was DEVASTATED when I found out at my 20 week scan that I was having a boy. I worked out at close to 9 months pregnant that it’s because I was utterly terrified of giving birth to my dad. Anyway, he’s a sweet, kind and considerate little boy and I am terribly lucky. I very much sympathise with your family dynamic, and I’m relieved to see you have a relationship with your Dsis. It’s hard when you’re the only one.

My father does reach out to me Rosa much to my dismay, he behaves as if he has a right to access me and doesn't seem to notice (or care) that I don't welcome his company.
As a very young child (preschool age) I was left in the care of a paedophile who molested me repeatedly, when as an adult I tried to get answers from my parents she went ballistic, he was quieter but his response was bizarre, he advised me not to go to the police because it wouldn't be fair on the paedophile.
I was shocked and humiliated by her ballistic reaction and just couldn't really process what he said but now I'm questioning why he is an apologist for a paedophile, I feel as if over the years he insisted on visiting me because he wanted to keep tabs on me to monitor me...make sure I wasn't going to speak out and make trouble.
I know I could in theory challenge him over it but I think that if I do he will have his answers his excuses and his spin ready to go and it will be just another episode of humiliation for me.
I remember how worthless I felt when he said that to me, worthless and stupid for even imagining that I mattered enough for a crime against me to be taken seriously.
I still can't really process it.

Ugh, feeling meh. This is an update from May when I posted about my mum and her friend visiting my son at uni.
My son took a few months to think about it and after seeing a counsellor he sent my mum a letter.
Dear Grandma and Grandad,

Apologies it’s taken so long to reply, I’ve had a lot of things on and it’s taken me a while to think it all over.

1. Personally, and speaking to others, I disagree that working for McDonalds is a bad thing. It’s a surprisingly tough job that offers a lot of skills, and even in the interview I had that was acknowledged, as well as having held down a job for so long. On top of this, N (his boss) has already spoken to me about a promotion to Crew Trainer, which would most definitely look good on my CV as experience managing and teaching in the workplace.

1. Aside from the implication that McDonalds isn’t proper work or work experience, I’ve already explained I will be searching for others around the area, now that I don’t have university or a house move to worry about. I’ve spoken with the boss Andy about the upcoming renovation and I’m just waiting for him to get back to me about shadowing the project manager, and help him with the architectural drawings needed for the project. On a similar point, swapping between 3 or 4 companies would likely be seen as job-hopping and undesirable to employers as it makes you seem like you can’t hold down a job.

1. I’ve spoken to many people about it, friends, family, university staff and a counsellor. I appreciate S’s (chinese friend) advice but ultimately it’s my decision and it’s my life to live for me, how I choose. This is good experience that I’m likely to progress in, in an environment where I’m comfortable rather than moving somewhere else in the country, or even to Hong Kong. While I can’t deny that would be an interesting experience, I don’t personally think a year in a country where I don’t know the language, don’t know anyone, and don’t eat the food would be in my best interests, and being sponsored may come off as a family favour at best, or at worst be seen as a sugar baby scenario, rather than my experiences being by my own merit.

I have to say that, whether consciously or unconsciously, it often feels like you’re trying to project your expectations onto me. In that what you decide is best, and there can be no compromise, but no offence but you don’t always know best. Nobody knows best for every scenario but it’s my life and my choice on how to live it.

The way you act when things don’t go your way, and people don’t do what you want also comes across, and I do appreciate what good intentions may be behind it, as manipulative and controlling. I brought L ( his friend) along for support as I was uncomfortable by the previous texts, expecting any advice would have been applicable to both of us as neither of us had a placement at the time. However it turned into an awkward situation, and felt like you deliberately separated me from my friend.

It didn’t come across as advice, it came across as emotional blackmail, with the tears, guilt trips, and comment about not being able to get a girlfriend if I worked at McDonalds.

The comments you’ve made in the past, as much as you denied them when I moved out of your house, were real and are damaging to self-esteem and confidence, and in the words of my college counsellor, one of the worst safeguarding cases she’d ever seen.

If you were to tell an adult you weren’t related to that you’re horrified at their job, immediately driving down the next day to see them and giving them very little notice, and then talking at them for two hours whilst keeping their friend separated, this would come across as harassment.

I’d like to continue a relationship, but feel things would need to change. Just because you feel your behaviour is in my best interests, it’s not okay to act this way. I’m an adult and it’s up to me to decide what’s in my own best interests. You said S (chinese friend) was over the top, but you don’t seem to realise that you helped in this behaviour.

Im not prepared to live my life only making choices that you feel reflect well on you and grandad. I need to make the decisions that are best for me. The further you continue with this behaviour, the more it drives me away and makes it less likely that I wish to continue any relationship with you and grandad.

Yours sincerely,

Peachsquish ds.

Their reply was
Sorry for the delay in responding. We thank you for your letter and have noted its comments.

I then got a letter from my mother.
Dad and I are at a loss to understand what we are supposed to have done wrong, and of course there are always two sides to things.

Yes, we went down to see peachsquish ds S, Chinese friend, and ourselves, thought it was a mistake to spend his gap year working at MacDonald’s (and we still do). Yes, it is better than bumming around but …

My cousin and his wife came to see us the other week and asked about peachsquish ds as their two boys went to same University as peachsquish ds and we explained it was Gap Year. They both said how important that had proved for their boys as they ended up with jobs at the same company they had worked during their Gap year. This was also the case with my bosses son.

Yes, S, chinese friend, was very much over the top, in fact embarrassingly so – I know, I sat in with her and tried on a few occasion to try to summarise what S, chinese friend, meant and how she was prepared to help peachsquish ds. At the end I certainly said this was peachsquish ds's decision but the offer of help was there. I certainly did not say peachsquish ds could live at your house rent free. S, Chinese friend, mentioned Grandad & Mom but I think she was referring to me not you. Even if peachsquish ds had taken up S's, chinese friend, offer and decided to stay at either our house or your house I would certainly have expected some contributions to rent etc. S, chinese friend, is very money orientated and does think she is an expert in things she knows little about, just because she has money but … all she was trying to do was help peachsquish ds not make a mistake. She felt she had a special interest in peachsquish ds, thought he had potential and wanted to help (ie buying the clothes at Christmas etc).

So moving on – I am not sure what peachsquish ds said to you, and don’t want to know, but this seems to have gone way beyond trying to help someone, whether or not it was misguided. We have endured slights doled out during the weeks but were upset to think you refused to come to the door when Dad brought round your birthday present.

In our opinion peachsquish ddis making a mistake – regardless of what S, chinese friend, thinks but as I said at the time it was up to peachsquish ds what he decided. I am sure most people have made mistakes in life, including yourself. But, as usual, we appear to be the scapegoat all because we were hoping to help peachsquish ds to come to a decision that might help him in the future.

Love

Mum and Dad

I replied
Dear Mum and Dad,

Your email to me says that you are at a loss to “understand what we are supposed to have done wrong, and of course there are always two sides to things.”

Yes there are two sides but after reading for myself your messages and emails to my ds and noting the very short timescale between you sending the 1st message on the 29th May and a visit hastily arranged the next day and sprung upon my ds the very morning you intended to visit, incidentally right before he had to take an exam. I find it hard to see your side as helpful concern, rather a concentrated effort to override an adult’s decision.

My ds had already made his decision which he felt was right for him and which included looking for small placements nearby. So therefore did not need a visit and to be talked at in what seemed designed to override the decision that he an adult, had already made and was happy with. Even if you did not like his decision, you had the opportunity to mention this in a phone call, text message, email or letter. A trip to uni town where he was separated from a friend and talked at for nearly 2hrs,the time was corroborated by his friend, because you (and S, chinese friend) do not like his decision, is far from normal behaviour. Without exception everyone to whom I have mentioned this to, including professional people and not just my friends, have been horrified and viewed it as extremely controlling behaviour.

Any placements gained by both your cousin and bosses children are quite irrelevant to the situation, unless it is in this academic year, it is hardly a true comparison due to economic factors at the time and numbers of students.

You seem to believe that the whole situation has been caused by S, chinese friend's behaviour, however your earlier messages to my ds show no sign of this and in fact you say that her behaviour is “generous”. Although without both your and dad’s willing compliance, S, Chinese friend could not have been able to reach uni town and be “very much over the top, in fact embarrassingly so.” Certainly if her behaviour was so appalling you will have made her aware of her social faux pas and suggested that she at the very least send a letter of apology to my ds.

My ds in fact has said very little and in the brief paragraph in which he summarised the meeting, most of the points have been corroborated by your messages and emails which he forwarded to me. Yes people do make mistakes but the mistake I see here is that of not listening to an adult who has made a decision which they feel is right for them and actively seeking to almost forcibly change their mind on what seemed to be mainly be based on the fact that you (and S, Chinese friend) don’t like the fact that he works in a fast food restaurant.

You say that the decision was my ds's but your letter, emails and messages after the uni visit have contradicted this completely.

I have no idea where you have the misguided notion from that I refused to answer the door on my birthday, but I can assure you that is in no way true and in fact my dd herself offered to answer the door as I was still in a towel from the shower.

On a final note the fact that my ds's letter to yourself was basically ignored does not give me or him any hope that you want to change and certainly your email to me seems to appear that you consider yours and dad’s behaviour beyond reproach. It feels that you cannot or will not accept that this is not a normal and acceptable way to treat an adult, or in fact anyone, who has made a decision of which you do not approve. If you are prepared to go to such lengths with an adult what security do I have that you will not expose my dd to the same or worst pressure if she makes decisions which you do not approve of?

Love

Peachsquish

Got her reply at 10pm tonight. Already have headache and full on tension across shoulders and up neck.
Dear peachsquish

Sorry I haven’t replied sooner but have been away on business. I can see your letter is signed ‘Love peachsquish but to our mind there is little love contained in this letter, in fact rather the opposite. We don’t want to fall out with anyone and have certainly missed peachsquish dd

You mention there are two sides, but have you even bothered to find out ‘our side’. Just to mention a few things – peachsquish ds didn’t appear to find S, chinese friend behaviour controlling when she was buying him clothes (not that I am criticising this, he did the right thing) and secondly peachsquish ds wasn’t so upset that couldn’t speak to us to ask Dad to move his stuff (which Dad was happy to help with). The days’ notice happened because that was the only opportunity to see peachsquish ds as he was working. I did not know that S, Chinese friend was going to go on as she did and just thought she wanted to offer peachsquish ds some alternatives, which she did but at length and over emotional. Peachsquish ds was not listening for most of the time anyway. There was nothing sinister in what happened, some students may have been happy to have an offer of some sponsorship, a trip to Hong Kong etc. However, in relation to your 3rd paragraph, one of the points S, chinese friend, did make was that successful people usually emulate, hang out, with successful people, hence my mentioning that this had worked for these people and they were successful. We did not relate the episode to my cousins they brought up the matter.

We are quite unsure what your 4th paragraph refers to – what earlier messages and emails. We did not realise that peachsquish ds discussed our conversations with you, not that we have anything to hide. We thought adults made up their own minds without having to refer to their mother. Regarding the ‘since conversations’, we acknowledged peachsquish ds letter (what was there to say?), have sent a few emails with asking how he is etc, with little response. He certainly has made little/no attempt to contact us or we would have been pleased to respond, as mentioned we have not fallen out with him.

As S,Chinese friend was trying to assist peachsquish
ds i don’t think she really has anything to apologise about apart from going on too long. Both she and I (who said very little at all, and just tried to keep summing up) stressed the fact that what peachsquish
ds did was peachsquish ds choice.

Regarding you ‘not answering the door’. It could be, as you say, but from the way you have acted recently, ignoring me at the climbing wall, the way you have responded on the phone etc, we could be forgiven for thinking this was just an extension of the same behaviour. Yes, we were a little upset by peachsquish ds letter (understandably, we think) and also at the furore that the matter (which could have been a storm in a teacup, if that) has caused between us. Peachsquish ds could have just listened and ignored any advice he didn’t want to accept, as he has done on other occasions and that, of course is his prerogative and is not unacceptable. As old headteacher (at school she taught at and I went to) always said ‘respond, not react’.

We have, from an adult age, devoted our lives to helping people. In general, most people are appreciative, except, so it seems, our own family. We have always tried to help you, peachsquish ds and peachsquish dd and have done so, willingly, on many occasions. As for controlling behaviour I would think that your reaction could also be seen as controlling, if not interfering behaviour, in a matter than you have only heard one side of, wasn’t present and perhaps should not really have concerned you.

We are also very upset regarding your last comment regarding peachsquish dd. We would never harm a hair of her head and it is very wrong of you to even suggest this. However, you put whatever emphasis you want on things. Unfortunately this is usually to our detriment, not the fact that we hoped S, chinese friend, would suggest a suitable alternative that may be attractive to peachsquish ds. We haven’t fallen out with either peachsquish ds or you and certainly don’t want to, but unfortunately, we can’t say the same is true of you and peachsquish ds. As far as we are concerned this is the end of the matter, we can’t undo anything and can only look to a brighter future.

Love Mum and Dad

They’re completely immune to your view or your son’s agency as an adult. You’re wasting your time and they’re loving the drama.

I would be bursting with pride at the DS letter. They’re incapable of understanding it though because it doesn’t fit with their worldview of you and him as extensions of themselves.

Sorry you’re enduring this. You can make it stop.