"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

It's also kind of weird that she's great in an absolute crisis, I mean where does that come from?

I can't imagine that any kind of rationalizing or discussion (with this woman that is your mother) would be fruitful, it's like there's no rational thought there at all she's completely switched her brain off, checked out, and she's just going on instinct or gut reaction, any way the wind blows and she's off
I mean what the f* all that horrible weird humiliating stuff not buying bras for her daughters this is dreadful, how could she not think about your feelings??

BeBrave you weren’t parented in the ways that you needed to be, I can hear your frustration and you are crying out desperately for your mother’s love.
For whatever reason, she didn’t do what you needed. You don’t feel able to confront her. And actually it might be very hard if you did and she denied it or worse.
If I were you I would find a therapist to work with, someone who can offer you a safe place to work through all this (transactional analysis would be good for you)
You know your mum is risky and unreliable, she couldn’t meet your needs as a child and you don’t feel ‘safe’ with her now.

Then maybe you can have a relationship with her, not the one you need or want, but something.

Im so glad to hear you have a family of your own. It may be worth reading Phillipa Perry’s new book ‘ The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read’, it’s very interesting on how we feel the echoes of our childhoods in our relationships with our own kids.

Get loads of hugs, it helps. X

Thank you for your responses. That's the first time I've written it down like that and i've only included a fraction for length reasons. My siblings obviously all have their perspectives too and things they went through after I'd moved out.

@Ulterego I don't know about a personality disorder but she's had a lot of loss in her life and I wonder frequently if she's distanced herself. She's definitely got worse as we've got older. She had the children for one day a week when they were very little while I worked but that stopped when they started school and she's only spent a handful of days with them since then. She is brilliant when things go very wrong. Mostly I can call her and she'll help in any way she can but doesn't seem to have a 'need to be needed' and if we don't call her, we never hear from her.

@Herocomplex - I think if we tried to discuss it with her, she'd be incredibly hurt and that would turn to defensiveness. I've had a few sessions of counselling before for anxiety around something happening to my husband and children (I spin myself into imagining all kinds of horrors ) but the counsellor focused on my relationship with my husband and his only comment was that I've effectively raised myself since my dad died. I'll look into transactional analysis though. I'm lucky in that my work will fund six sessions a year. I have a completely different relationship with my children and they are in no doubt that I love them, think they're clever and funny and want to spend time with them and that I'd do anything to protect them. I didn't get any of that growing up. Thank you for the book recommendation; I'll order it now.

@BeBraveAndBeKind, you very understandably want her to account for herself and explain her terrible behaviour, I would say that she very likely never will give you what you want.
The more common scenario is that the abusive parent wants contact and so at least you have some leverage ....you can (in theory) withhold contact until you get some answers, but with her you don't really seem to have any leverage?
I don't know maybe I'm going in totally the wrong direction here?

Hi all - incredible thread. I feel for everyone on here, many of your posts are so hard to read, I'm sorry you've been through this.

I've not read this full thread so apologies if I've missed similar posts: When my sister had a baby she started questioning her upbringing, and was horrified to realise that we came from a hugely emotionally dysfunctional household. I kind of knew this, but needed someone who'd experienced the same as me to own up to it. I've spent 35 years convinced there's just something a bit 'wrong' about me.

We're pretty sure that our father is a covert narcissist - or at least if he's not full blown, he has a huge array of the traits. I think with this personality type it can sometimes be hard to tell, as they're reserved and extremely bright, so hide it well. But under the surface it's very, very dark and deeply dysfunctional.

He has an aggressively quiet smugness and superiority to him, extreme lack of empathy, very passive aggressive, highly sensitive if told he's wrong (emotional fall out can be huge from this), extremely vengeful, consistently picks 'waster' friends that make him look more accomplished / boost his sense of self worth. He's also unable to form any sort of meaningful friendships - his most substantial relationship is with my mother (which I think she's been proud of, because it makes her feel like she's worth something).

It's been the most wonderful relief - suddenly my sister sees it's not me. I never was the devil I was often painted to be; I was just gaslighted by my father and shamed to my mother and sister as a means of him exerting his power. I can't tell you how much it's shifted my sense of wellbeing - I feel more whole.

My sister and I didn't speak between the ages of 15 - 25 (me - she's 4 years younger). I mean literally, did not talk - no 'pass the salt', nothing. My father did some really classic triangulation. I knew this wasn't normal, but I also didn't realise how abnormal it was until really very recently. I was amazed when my sister told me that she was the 'golden child' and I was the 'scapegoat'. I'd been so conditioned into thinking that there's something innately wrong with me, that I didn't realise the dynamic !!

My mother always stood by him - I think in many ways she was in equal measure in absolute awe of him and utterly terrified of any fall out. She idolises him, and is entirely emotionally dependent upon him even though she now sees some of this for what it was. She has very serious anxiety issues (as does my sister), and I think perhaps my dad has a lot to do with this. She'd furiously deny it if so, and say he's utterly supportive, but he has a way of persuading you he is supportive whilst subtly dripping poison into your ear.

I think there's a lot to be said for nurture in forming this personality type. My grandmother, his mother, was clearly a dangerous narcissist (again, must be covert - she was not a verbose or grandiose figure). It terrifies me to think that it could be nature and lurking somewhere I have these qualities. I do everything in my power to be transparent, clear, fair, kind, loving and selfless when it comes to my toddler son.

I could go on for hours, but mainly posting out of a sense of relief that was entirely unexpected.

Hi everyone,
I've been lurking for a while and have decided to pop my head up and say hello! It is very comforting to read these threads and know I'm not alone, but at the same time I'm sad for all of our inner children that we've had to go through this and still deal with the ramifications.
I've finally come to the decision to send my NParent The Letter explaining that I am very angry at them and need some time NC to heal properly. I am telling them, calmly and kindly, that their behaviour has been unacceptable to me. Things have been on an even keel for a good few years but I just can't forgive the past. I have realised I am worth so much more. I don't know what to expect - indifference and invalidation, or pure rage and blame. It's a lucky dip living with narcissistic parents isn't it?!
I'm looking forward to releasing the obligation of having to uphold the happy family image, and focus on my healing. I'm working with a great therapist who supports my decision, and I am hoping that actually directing this anger to the person who deserves it will be a big step in my healing and letting go of the toxic thoughts and feelings that deep down I deserved it. I'm in my thirties now and just cannot carry these feelings around any more!
I'm sure I'll be back to share the fall-out of The Letter soon enough, and I hope I can also support others going through the same sh*tty relationships, even if only with and
TrueRefuge

Hi True

I would urge you not to send this letter to him because it will be used by them against you. Indeed write them a letter but shred it afterwards.

Narcissists like nothing better than to attack and your letter will give these people a huge amount of ammo to lob in your direction. These people do not care at all about how you feel and they really do have no empathy.

Which parent are you referring to or are they both narcissistic?. Is there a narcissistic parent and their enabler?.

Have a read too of the Out of the FOG website if you have not already done so.

but he has a way of persuading you he is supportive whilst subtly dripping poison into your ear
This is my Dad too, in many ways.
It's only recently when something very bad and shocking happened in my life he responded in a weird cold way I could tell that he was angry that I had all this going on in my life at a time when he has decided I should step up and start playing The dutiful daughter (I'm in my mid 50s he's late 70s) I joined the dots so the parallels with previous times when he had responded in a strange way and I saw the full picture.
He almost never loses his temper, there's a very subtle smug superior air about him but mostly he plays the kind sympathetic negotiator.
I am scared to go no contact with my father because I don't know how vengeful he could be, it's clear from his behaviour that he doesn't care about my well-being it's all a facade, if I criticise him or call him out on anything he will just use that information to more subtly refine his approach to try and get what he wants out of me which is the put me in service of him in his old age I think, I don't know, he makes me shudder, I just want to get away from him 😟

I have to say I agree with @Attilathemeerkat do not send the letter
I remember what happened when I sent the letter to my other parent.
I truly genuinely believed that she would see it from my position, really I think everyone else must have been laughing at me that I was so naive and I didn't realise what she was like.
Hellfire and fury was rained down on me I was humiliated, eviscerated
Grey rock and back away very slowly I think might be a better approach
When you send a letter I think you give too much power to the narcissist, never let them know what you're up to always keep that powder bone-dry.
I'm not saying this to be contrarian or start disagreement, I highly value the supportive community here 🙏

Instead of a letter I would suggest some kind of ceremony to tell your unconscious mind that you no longer have to treat this person like a parent, it's a symbolic way of letting go, it could be writing the letter and shredding it, it could be writing a letter and putting it in a box with and burning it then scattering the ashes.
if you send a letter you are inviting the pig to step into the wrestling ring with you, pigs love to wrestle.

These are people have no qualms whatsoever about putting their interests first, the more intelligent and in control of their emotions the better they are able to advance their own interests.
Whatever you give them, show them or tell them will be used to fine tune their strategy, to put themselves ahead of everyone else and get what they want.

Hi rosamundos it’s great you’ve got your sister back. I had a similar relationship with my sister, my parents divided us terribly. My sister and I consciously try to have some conversations where we don’t mention our parents or our childhood at all, it’s very empowering in its normality!

I’m glad you’ve found some comfort in knowing you’re not alone. It’s a kind of awful relief. 💐

@TrueRefuge I sent an email years ago after a major fall out and all I got back was ‘but we did this for you’ and ‘we did that for you’ plus a load of denials about incidents I had referred to, switching the blame. Oh and a few personal insults I think. I agree with the others that there’s probably not much to gain from actually sending the letter but you have to do what feels right for you I suppose; so long as you are feeling emotionally strong enough for some narcissistic anger being directed at you, as sadly it appears they love nothing more than a good excuse to raise all manner of hell. Let us know how it goes, and if you do send it and do get a shitty response they are plenty people here to talk to and pick it over with. Hope it goes ok, whatever you decide x
@Ulterego
i am scared to go no contact with my father because I don’t know how vengeful he could be . Me too

True have you thought about what you want the letter to achieve?

Sending someone a list of your feelings suggests that you think those feelings should matter to them.

I’d write the letter, go back to your therapist and explore it there, read it out loud. Then think about what happens next. If you feel the letter itself is your closure then do you need to send it?

What will be your next move? They’ll either respond with rage, (but you already have a lot of evidence of that, don’t you?) or they will ignore you.

Think beyond the letter. Are you prepared?

Marmaduke do you think a 'grey rock back away slowly' sort of approach will work in your case?
really I just want to mute him, I want to be able to treat him like a distant uncle who is not my problem, (there's another very angry part of me that wants to kill him with my bare hands 😣)

I think that sending a letter usually elicits some sort of DARVO (deny accuse reverse victim and offender) response?

Hi everyone - thanks so much for your thoughts, all pretty unanimous and I was expecting such replies...!
I must say I have had this letter prepared for two years, barely changed, not sent, and it's not helped me heal. It hasn't been therapeutic to write it down. It keeps me locked in anger. I've had therapy and discussed it all before and we're still coming back to the same feelings now (second therapist). My sending this letter is not to get validation or understanding - I don't expect that. I am sending it so they know why I'm going temporarily NC (as things have been fine - superficially - for years, it will be coming out the blue to them) and to express to them that I find their behaviour appalling and that's why our relationship is the way it is. I am not expecting agreement or an apology. I am just sending it because I need them to know what I feel - I know with a narcicisst that sounds ridiculous but it matters to me. It will feel like closure, being able to tell them what they've done rather than endlessly talking about it in therapy, to friends, my DH etc... It is a process of self-validation actually, to say "I am strong enough to tell you the truth, regardless of the consequences - your opinion no longer matters to me". I feel ready for the consequences (as ready as I can be) and I am prepared to go fully NC permanently in the face of further abuse.
But thank you all so much and I may be back in a week sobbing to you all how horrendously it has gone!!
@AttilaTheMeerkat, it's my father - my mum died a few years ago; definitely was an enabler but also kind and compassionate and clearly co-dependent.

TrueRefuge
I understand. My god, you’ve done the hard yards. We’re here for you x

I understand your thinking True
In my case the narcissist was severely provoked by the letter and behaved in a way that was outrageous and shocking to everyone, they provided me with ample grounds to cut them out of my life forever.
Talk about shoot from the hip 😂🤣😂

I am strong enough to tell you the truth regardless of the consequences
I do like this😊
in my case it was a long long time ago and I naively expected validation and sympathy, if I knew then what I know now I could have sent the letter from position of strength and preparedness for the consequences.

@Ulterego: I'd be lying if I said a little part of me doesn't hope he responds with objectively outrageous behaviour that is objective, unequivocal grounds for permanent NC for the rest of my/his life....! Would certainly get rid of the G of the FOG!
Thank you and to you too @Herocomplex - I really appreciate it x

@Ulterego yeah I have subconsciously been doing that anyway I think. I feel exactly the same as you do. I just wish he would disappear off the face of the earth! He will do one day I suppose. When I was a kid and he went out to work I would wish he would die, just so that he would be gone so I didn’t have to live with him anymore. It’s my mother I have the complicated feelings towards, but I’m in the middle of writing a raging letter to them that I am keeping for myself and I’m going to get it all out then read it back to myself and I’m hoping it will help me to see things more rationally, take the emotion out a bit. A therapist told me once that it helps to put someone else in the position rather than yourself and see what you would think of it was them being affected and give yourself the advice you’d give them. So I’m going to try that I once I’m finished writing it.

@rosamundos Sorry to hear of your experiences. It's empowering that your sister has "seen the light" and that despite the triangulation attempts, it sounds like you have a closer relationship now and can share the woes of your childhood?

For what it's worth, just from reading your post I highly doubt you have any of his cruelty and manipulation, and if you do have a few "fleas", I bet you're self-aware enough to manage them. That's all that any of us can do!

True that's it, what they did was so bad that I felt no guilt in cutting them out completely, but you still have a very angry person out there with a massive grudge against you who believes you have committed the ultimate crime and deserve punishment.
With the person like that I prefer to keep them where I can see them and keep tabs on them.