"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
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April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Hithere12
That’s disgusting
If Ss turn up they won’t find what he’s accused you of and you just apologise for him wasting their time and tell them the backstory of his threats
Arsehole

If he does contact you you can always post on here for help and support in regards to the best way to react.
It's horrible to be stalked by a parent, horrible that a parent would want to instill a sense of threat and menace in you, not caring about the reasons why you don't want to engage with them, only caring about thier need to dominate and control

Yeah I don’t have any kids so I doubt ss would care, he was going to pretend I’m “mental” 🙄 because I don’t want to talk to him. It’s so ridiculous.

He doesn't sound very bright so it shouldn't be hard to think ahead of him 😉

Hithere12

This behaviour from your dad is called hoovering and is done by many toxic people in an attempt to draw you back into their dysfunctional world.

Social services would not be interested in his rantings.

I would seriously consider reporting his behaviour to the police; they do take such matters seriously.

I am hoping to get in touch with survivors that have gone no contact with their 'families'.

Please feel free to jump to the capitals section. If you are interested in my background to see if you can relate, please see below a summary of my story:

My mother abused my sister and me physically and emotionally. My childhood was lived in terror. She humiliated us viciously making us feel worthless. She beat us furiously at least weekly. She forced my sister to fetch a belt so that she would punish me or viceversa.

I had constant suicidal ideation. I'd lay on the road hoping a car would run me over. I'd drink shampoo hoping I'd die. I was bullied in primary school. I told my parents but they justified the kids doing the bullying.

My father was a busy medical consultant and was largely absent throughout. He had a soft spot for my sister and noticed her.

When I became a teenager I went to boarding school and -to my utter amazement became popular- with newly found confidence I confronted my mother when I realised that what went on in my house was not the norm. The abuse somewhat lessened. My father became more involved then, alas in a negative way. He ignored me in childhood but insulted me (calling me a whore for example) and beat me during my teenage years.

My parents were extremely violent and abusive with each other, separating and reconciling multiple times. I attempted suicide after one of their reconciliations. I was hospitalised for a week. My mother did not come to visit me and did not speak to me in the month that followed.

Eventually they separated when I finished secondary school. My sister went to live with my father and I stayed with my mother. My father resented this and threatened to kill us, waving his handgun at me.

My mother and I lived in poverty two years receiving no financial support from anybody. She was terminally ill then and died when I was 20. I moved out with a friend. My sister attempted suicide and was in a comma three weeks. I relocated to the UK from the US when I was 22.

I received no support from him. I trained in the UK and have worked all my life minus a couple of years when my son was born.

My sister has never really worked. My father supported her as he considered she lacked capacity, which is not true. He disabled her preventing her from becoming independent. She married a man as abusive as my father and relocated to Germany. She has two kids and no work experience. Her husband disables her further.

Now, back to the present:

My sister has never wanted to discuss what happened to us. She says it harms her to remember. She wants to leave that in the past and move on.

My father has different takes. Sometimes he claims to not have known that my mother was doing this. Other times he claims that I am exaggerating. He attributes his own abuse to his diabetes or 'micro-strokes'. These discussions always ended with a recommendation for me to leave all this in the past and concentrate on my achievements at work, my family, my home, hobbies, whatever.

I CANNOT LEAVE ANY OF IT IN THE PAST. I AM STILL TERRIFIED OF MY DEAD MOTHER. I STILL RESENT MY FATHER AND FEEL THAT I HATE HIM. I DESPISE MY SISTER. I CANNOT COPE WITH THEM AND I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THEM IN THREE YEARS.

I AM EMBARRASSED BECAUSE EVERYBODY ELSE AROUND ME HAS A LOVING FAMILY, THAT SUPPORTS THEM AND COMFORTS THEM.

I have read 'Toxic parents' and, unfortunately, neither my father nor my sister is willing to do what it takes to have a relationship. They have chosen to carry on without me. Every now and then a cousin or an aunt tells me that they go around saying that I am mentally ill, which is the ultimate nail in the coffin.

How will this 42 year nightmare end?

The thing is he isn’t stupid, he’s very manipulative and good at convincing people he’s a great guy etc, but yeah I just want to avoid him

@Hithere12 dm is good at this too, anyone who has never had to deal with a drunk dm thinks the sun shines out her arse
But we know the truth and that’s all that matters. We just have to keep up with the nc and ignore them the best we can

Hello @Prusssianblue, you have been treated appallingly, you must be very strong person to survive this.
I don't think you're going to get any answers from your family members, have you thought about exploring this with a therapist of some kind?
Please don't be embarrassed for one thing it's not your fault that your family arent loving, and the truth is that many people sadly come from abusive family backgrounds.

@Hithere, 'stupid like a fox' then .....manipulative and charismatic, but not clever in the academic sense?
Just don't engage at all, he can't manipulate you if you don't 'give' him anything with which to do so

@prussianbluevelvet hello, I am sorry you have had to put up with all this abusive shit from the people who were supposed to protect you. We are all in the same boat here, obviously their are difference circumstances for each of us but what I mean is that we understand on a fundamental level how you feel. I am probably going to go for psychotherapy soon, I have a meeting about it next week. Is it something you think may be helpful for you? I don’t know yet what it will be like but I feel as if it will be helpful in terms of making sense of things. I get the impression that you want to understand why you feel the way you do and you are struggling. X

Hi.

I posted today for the first time. I can see some similarities in the sense that I am also NC with my father and this has been so for three years.

It is a very alienating position to be in as my work colleagues all seem to have supportive family relationships, or at least not downright abusive ones.

I never go into detail as to what goes on in my life because I am embarrassed... my birth family are Italian-American and for a long time I attributed their abusive behaviour to a different culture and growing up in a different era but I don’t condone their abuse.

I have never abused my child. I have never humilliated, insulted or beaten him, even when that is how I was raised. They could have done the same.

Psychotherapy was very useful -I attended twice for two years each time-. It takes hard work. Because these issues are deeply entrenched psychodynamic approaches often are the best type of therapy. CBT can only offer strategies to change how you respond, it will not deal with the issues.

Have you read ‘Toxic families’?

Hi, thanks for your responses @MarmadukeM and @Ulterego. I have attended psychotherapy weekly twice, for two years at a time. The last time was 4years prior. I think that this contributed to my decision of going no contact. I found therapy very powerful and useful (and expensive!).

I currently struggle with feelings of loss and alienation as the people around me all benefit from constructive and supportive parents and siblings.

How are you two getting on?

I can't even imagine what it would be like to have parents who are truly in my corner, I remain surprised that my adult children even like me at all, mine were just a pair of bastards that I wanted to get away from as quickly as possible😳
I am ok, functioning, but with issues and extremely bent out of shape
You've been through a hell of a lot Prussianblue💐

I'm sorry for what you went through, PrussianBlueVelvet, and for the way it is still affecting you deeply. Your sister is trapped in an abusive marriage - hardly surprising, given the way she has been held back all of her life and having only learned what abusive family relationships look like - and I'm guessing that at some level, she might well understand how and why she ended up this way but finds it hard to admit. That might explain why she doesn't want to talk to you about what happened to both of you. She would have to face up to her current choices too, and that must be particularly painful for her.

All credit to you for being absolutely determined that your son feels loved and is cared for properly, the way that you and your sister should have been when you were children. You are right that your parents could have chosen to do the same but they did not. They failed you, each in their own way, and you deserved so much better.

I am NC with my parents - coming up to a year now - and by default, with my middle sister and brother. M has apparently done everything to force them into "it's her or me" camps, not that they needed much encouragement. However, I've always been close to my younger DSis - I was 17 when she was born, and parented her because M couldn't be bothered - and that strong bond continues. It infuriates M, who is currently trying to hoover DSis back in as a way of dividing us (flogging a dead horse there). This is completely different to your situation though. I am sorry you feel so isolated.

Are you able to have any sort of relationship or communication with your sister, even if it is only on a surface level?

Those of you who have been aware of your dysfunctional upbringing for some time: how have you gone about reclaiming yourself? How do you feel like a proper, fully fledged person? I'd be interested in anything other than therapy. (FWIW, I've seen a therapist for a while, which helped tremendously. I can't afford anymore right now though.)

That’s a good question purplefig, I did some psychotherapy training myself which helped me to see how counselling works. I improved my relationships with the good people in my life because I finally understood how to listen properly to them.
I read and read. I thought about a lot of my attitudes to myself, about how my fear of doing the wrong thing was causing me to not do very much at all. I realised how often I’m not very honest, and avoid upsetting people by telling partial truths. I’ve tried to stop myself taking on other people’s emotional loads - I’m trying to be more honest about what I need.
Face up to yourself, think about what you’d like to change.
It’s really tough though!

@PrussianBlueVelvet i am feeling ok at the moment. I haven’t been close to my parents for almost a decade really, although they have provided me with help on a practical level with childcare I wouldn’t say I have had any more than a superficial level relationship. I tolerate my stepfather and he tolerated me back (barely). I don’t have a relationship like my friends do with their parents, and I have a brother but he is very quiet and submissive. He had issues growing up and went to a special needs school so we have never been close. I suppose I’m used to feeling like I’m on my own so I’m ok with it, I have put all my energies into my kids and my relationship with my husband and my friends. They are who I look to for support and advice, not my parents. I want nothing from them, I’d rather they disappeared as they are a malign presence in my life. I only maintain relations with them out of the FOG thing (has been pointed out to me on here and I totally agree).
@purplefig I’d say that my husband was the biggest positive influence on me from a self confidence point of view, then once I became a parent, my kids. They gave me unconditional love which I def didn’t get from parents.

then once I became a parent, my kids. They gave me unconditional love which I def didn’t get from parents.

I think having children - if you are lucky enough to have them - changes everything. You become determined to give them the loving and healthy childhood you never had and you see things more clearly. I also think it's easier in some ways to stand up to your parents in order to protect or defend your children. I know that when I was younger, I was much braver speaking up in defence of my little sister than I ever was on my own behalf.

@Herocomplex thanks for sharing - all of those points really resonated with me. Any particular books you'd recommend?

@MarmadukeM luckily my husband is totally solid too, and has also done wonders to help me work towards better self esteem.

@SingingLily funnily I'm currently pregnant with my first! I think it's what's brought a lot of this stuff back up to be honest. Your comment gives me a lot of hope.

It's tricky because I'm actually fairly close with parents and for the most part do get along with them these days. And while there was a fair bit of EA growing up, there isn't now and it's hard to feel I'm not exaggerating / misremembering. They're pretty different people these days. But I for sure have issues to work on as a result of my childhood and I'm really determined not to continue the cycle with my own children.

That's lovely news, purplefig, congratulations! You've every reason to hope and to look forward to the future with your own new little family.

Hi purplefig An Examined Life by Steven Grosz is a good read, and Love’s Executioner by Irving Yalom.

Interestingly my relationship with my parents improved a lot when I was pregnant and my son was little. It started to become tricky when we began to do more adventurous things, and they felt less in control again. It then got more and more difficult until it became completely untenable this year.

I’m glad things are good for you with your family. But what happened to you as a child did happen.

Purple fig

I would also share the same concerns. They could well use your as yet unborn child to beat you emotionally and further with.

What happened to you did indeed happen. A good rule of thumb is that if they are or even have been too toxic.,difficult, batshit for you to deal with it’s the same deal for your kids too.

@Bekind, I am so sorry for what happened to you, your account of your childhood is shocking and disturbing
Your mother's behaviour is completely off the chart (please understand I don't say this so as to in any way exonerate her) but it sounds as if she has a severe personality disorder at the very least, do you not think?