"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

The USB stick was a talisman that he carried about with him to prove his power, and as @Singinglily says his need for self-aggrandisement made him act against his own interests, that certainly does look like case of misconduct? (Maybe it was encrypted I don't know?)

Encrypted or not, it makes no odds. It's a breach of security. He's retired now so there is little the Fire Service could do now as he is no longer within reach of their code of staff conduct and discipline. However, if his former colleagues learned of it, it would shred his professional reputation to bits. (Or perhaps it would confirm it? In my experience, idiots are idiots, whatever rank they reach).

MarmadukeM, savour the moment! You have proof positive that your stepfather is a Grade A idiot.

I posted above about being nc past month or so. Recently sent a gift to my brother a week ago and he hasn't replied to say thank you. My other sibling hasn't contacted me. I feel very isolated but trying to stay strong.
Dm is messaging to dc.
Today dh has gone to his parents who love and support him and I don't Think he understands at all how I feel.

MarmadukeM
Mine love to talk about there being ‘consequences’ to actions, ironically failing to see that they dont apply this rule to themselves
This is my dad, yes they don't apply the rule to themselves. They have very selective memories too never remembering anything they did wrong. They can however recall things others did wrong 20 years ago though. Well what they perceive as wrong to them.

Chilledout11 that's very rude of your brother. Are you NC with your parents and your siblings giving you the silent treatment because of that?
Stay strong
It's hard for others to understand what it's like. I get quite jealous and sad when I see people who have loving supportive parents. Must be nice.

I'm trying to stay strong but feel physically sick at all of this. Siblings didn't really contact me anyway but this was a special occasion gift (don't want to out self). An expensive well thought gift. Other sibling I get on well with but has own problems and never contacts me or has even visited in several years. Doesnt know where our house is more to the point.

Other relatives are visiting dm this week from abroad and I know they will hear how bad I am. Dm will cry and say what has she ever done to deserve this. I am also worries about other people finding out and everyone hating me. A bit of me thinks I should have just stayed in Low contact and ignored everything. I can't though. I can't take the blame for her tantrums and saying she wants to kill herself and dfather ringing me to visit more often and that she is on tablets because of me.

All my life I have been good and did whatever I had to keep the peace. It's only when I had my own dc and she still expected me to run after her and clean and then run me down with spiteful comments. Dfather rings dh to see how he is but never me. He's showing that he hates me.

Chilled, remember that you can't influence her and you can't change the way she behaves. If she is going to badmouth you to visiting relatives, she will do that whether or not you are there - and crucially, whether or not you turn yourself inside-out to be the ultimate Good Daughter. This is a game you cannot win...except by not playing.

If you are close to these relatives, they will know the truth. She doesn't control their minds. On the other hand, if you are not close to them, then they have no input into your everyday life anyway so what does it matter what they think?

Please stop beating yourself up. That nagging criticising persistent little voice in your head that is currently making life so hard for you was planted there by your parents but now is entirely within your control. Tell it to shut up. Tell it to leave you alone. Do something to distract yourself till the pain subsides - go for a brisk walk, put on some loud cheerful music (even though you feel the very opposite of cheerful right now), play some computer games like Steve or Panda, make yourself a nice snack, do something - anything - till you feel able to cope again.

This feeling of pain and hopelessness won't last. You will get through it.

Appreciate you listening lily. It's very hard when we always had to do whatever we could to keep her happy. I used to be afraid to come home from school to one her her moods and stayed in my room a lot of the time and in the library on a Saturday as you cannot be yourself around her.
When it suits her she is ill and unable to cope - that gets her off the hook with most things. My father works long hours and often away from home yet asks me to visit (I did visit twice a week but that was never enough). This is the longest time I have stayed away from them. Both of to parents have fallen out with thier siblings quite badly so if the tell uncles etc they will understand what dm is like. It is people who know me that I am ashamed of. They would just say ignore dm let her say what she wants and still visit.

I can't describe my hurt.

When it suits her she is ill and unable to cope - that gets her off the hook with most things

So she's sensitive about her own feelings, but not anybody else's? And certainly not yours? She doesn't deserve your consideration, Chilled, so stop feeling guilty.

Both of to parents have fallen out with thier siblings quite badly so if the tell uncles etc they will understand what dm is like.

In other words, far from thinking badly of you, they'll probably be thinking, "Good on Chilled. And about time too!"

It is people who know me that I am ashamed of. They would just say ignore dm let her say what she wants and still visit.

Is this what they actually said to you? Or is it what you think they might say? If it's the latter, it's that horrible nagging little voice in your head again, so tell it to shut up. If it's the former, well, they probably have normal decent family relationships and have no idea what it's been like for you.

Having said that, a little while ago, a friend caught me on a bad day and asked me what was wrong. I was so low that I took a chance and told her about my parents. There was a long pause - I thought "here it comes, the disapproval" - and then she breathed out and told me all about her own toxic upbringing. All that time, and we'd never known that about each other; so strong is the need to fit in with society's expectations and pretend that we love and honour our parents and they love and support us.

There are more of us about than you might think, Chilled. People are not always as judgemental as you might think.

Chilled

Its not your fault your mother is this disordered of thinking and you did not make her that way.

Both your parents here have failed you utterly and your mother seems also to have a willing enabler too in your dad. He has also failed to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviours and has thrown you under the bus in the process whilst protecting his own neck.

I would protect yourself as far as possible and not have anything whatsoever to do with her or your dad. This is easy to write and hard to do but self preservation is necessary and you have every right to no longer be abused by her and in turn him. If they are too toxic for you to deal with its the same deal for your kids too. Prevent your DM from messaging your kids with her nonsense.

Am sorry but not altogether surprised to see that the gift you sent was not acknowledged. This sibling may want to remain the favoured person to parents hence their lack of response. Please do not bother with this person any more, spend your time, effort and money instead on people who will appreciate it instead like your own family unit.

and as for your relatives saying let her say what she wants too and still visit. No no and no again. Your relations have not had to live with this woman.

This is the longest time I have stayed away from them
you've come this far Chilled, you CAN keep going
Dfather rings dh to see how he is but never me. He's showing that he hates me
Respond in kind by freezing him out permanently!

@SingingLily and @Ulterego that bloody USB had fuck all of importance on it I reckon. Probs just some rotas or some shite. He is not averse to extreme exaggeration lol. I don’t think people thought too highly of him at work; someone told my husband that when my stepfather was leaving they were going to do a shit in a shoebox and give it to him 😂. Sadly they didn’t.
@Chilledout11 I’m sorry they are being grace A arseholes to you, how old are your kids? It’s true there’s no point in trying to make things work with these people who all buy in to the narcissists nonsense. Looks like they are part of that whole divide and conquer thing. Not worth your time pet x

Children are 4 and 6. This is incredibly difficult and dh doesn't seem to want to talk about it. Dfather was horrible to him early on in our marriage and dh refused to see them for a long time but now he says they are nuts but I don't get much emotional support from dh either. I feel like getting away from everyone. I had an hour to myself this morning and I came back to the house upside down and off he went to his parents and left all for me to do. He sees this as giving me a break. I just don't see the point in much at the moment.

Chilled my advice is at the moment keep things small. Don’t think too far in advance, just go bit by bit. You are taking on huge things emotionally at the moment, give yourself some headspace. Breathe.

My head is in a spin. I'm looking for work abroad and trying to find a way to run away from it all but I know the anxiety and stress will still be there. Dh won't want to move.

Good luck for tomorrow @PandaAtTheZoo

@Chilledout11 sounds like you are panicking xx Are you looking for a job abroad so that you can move away from the situation or are there other reasons for moving? I was thinking, if you are close to any of your uncles then maybe you could speak to them? They are your family, they know these people and they have been on the receiving end of their crappy behaviour too by the sounds of it so maybe spending time with members of your family who are actually decent people might be of benefit as they could be a source of support? Xx

SimplySteveRedux thanks, my mum agreed they would come later in the week instead. I was adamant that I wasn't cancelling on bil. Just getting silent treatment from my dad, ow well he can sulk all he likes. Though now instead of staying in a hotel they decided they are staying at my house. No doubt it will be constant sulking or emotional blackmail from my dad when they are here.

Has anyone experienced a parent just NOT accepting you going NC? My emotionally abuse Dad has boardered on trying to stalk me, tried to steal my address when I don’t want him to have it etc, it’s like a black cloud over me all the time

@Hithere12
Yes
It’s like she just forgets everything that has been said
Until I finally figured out how to block her in Hotmail , conversations would go something like this
Me: I don’t want anything from you , you always think you can just get away with your behaviour by throwing money at me. I’ve already told you that you either get professional help with you’re drinking or I don’t want you in my life. You’re never going to change and I’m blocking your number again
Her 3 days later : oh I’m so excited, becoming a grandmother is the best thing that could happen to me !
Me: ignores , thinking as if I’d let my dc anywhere near you to go through what I did as a kid. Not a chance

@Hithere😊
Yes I think this is fairly common, but ultimately if you refuse to engage with someone there's nothing they can do, you are an adult and you have a right to choose not to be in contact with a relative.
If he is abusive and stalking you then he is behaving like a Predator he is not behaving like a parent, why should you engage with him as if he were a parent?

it’s like she just forgets everything that has been said
I have been subjected to this kind of behaviour it's infuriating and it throws you for a loop.
however clearly she has NOT forgotten she is just attempting to control the narrative, asserting her version of reality and ignoring yours.
you can refuse to engage or you can play her at her own game, ignore what she says and continue to assert your reality

@Hithere12
It’s quite scary that he is so persistent?
Can you get the law involved?
Most I worry about is drunken dickhead dm ringing me at work but I also worry about dh’s biological df turning up. I’ve never met him but he is a very violent man who still thinks he deserves contact with his adult dc after beating the crap out of them as kids .

He’s threatened to make bogus social service calls against me. The whole things so depressing. I haven’t heard from him in months which is always good. But yeah I does get me down. He just wants power & control and is furious I can just cut him off.