"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Facebook isn’t great for these situations either. It’s a big distortion of things. Limit what you do on there when you’re feeling low.

Sorry you're going through this @chilledout11 I also read that the sorry she sent you was Hoovering. It's just a general sorry nothing specific and therefore she doesn't mean it. She's trying tactics to get you back because maybe her usual ones aren't working??

Could someone give me a general jist of what the grey rock technique is?

Also funny thing is my mum and dad reacted extremely badly when I told them I was pregnant. It actually resulted in me calling the police on my dad and getting him arrested!

@Chilledout11
Deep down she understands that if you can break free of her you will be able to fly, she knows that you're strong and you can create a life for yourself.
she hates the thought of you out doing her in any way, that's why she is desperate to stop you from fulfilling your potential and flourishing.
They sound like batshit rats in a sack, desperate to drag their daughter down to their level, run away as fast as you can

I have wondered about this adverse reaction to pregnancies, I think generally speaking they see it as a threat to their control over you, if you are pregnant then you are the person who needs care sympathy and attention and of course they never like that.
Also they must understand that some level that when you have children you will start to realise that the way they treated you as a child was wrong.
If you have strong emotional bonds with your children then that reduces their power over you, it's much more difficult for them to make you work for them, have you at their beck and call when you have a duty towards your children.

Grey rocking is making yourself just that - dull and uninteresting. Never really start a discussion, stick to bland topics, smile and nod, but be very non-commital. Be vague about arrangements. Just be emotionally unavailable.

I sort of did a variation of it for years without noticing. We talked about curtain fabric and the weather, about gardens and their holidays. All me agreeing and asking very bland questions, making myself small, nodding along to her grandiose pronouncements about herself, and listening to her running down everyone she met.
I didn’t know I was doing it though, so was still looking for approval and validation. I had no boundaries, I was still the audience.

Thanks @herocomplex I'll have a look more into it tonight. I think I'm going to try it 1st before NC. I popped round my parents earlier as DS really wanted to see them. It's really strange that I can see their behaviour more clearer now. They weren't too bad apart from calling my son bossy. Which yes he was being bossy but he's 3 they didn't have to keep saying it! I didn't stay for long as I couldn't stand to be around them for much longer. Funny how things change when you realise isn't it.

@Ulterego what you said about the duty of care to your children is true and I think that’s what’s got me all het up. I’m damned if they are going to extend their crappy treatment to my children. My DD was telling me they’ve been criticising what she wears, making arbitrary rules and generally poking at her whilst she’s been at their caravan. She said she didn’t react, she just went quiet and so they started saying she was in a huff. Dicks. Out of interest, when people are thinking/trying or have actually gone NC who is it you feel the most guilt about? The narcissist or the other parent? And also, do you think that when they have been in a relationship together for years and years the narcissists qualities rub off on the other one and they become like them? I don’t think my mother is the woman she used to be, she has changed, and not for the better!

Guilt is useless. You didn’t cause it, you can’t change them. They’ve failed you.

If you’re feeling guilty, stop and ask yourself why.

Narcissists are not capable of making healthy relationships because they are not empathetic. They usually attract people who lack self-esteem and form co-dependant relationships. But while that’s of interest to you, it’s really neither here nor there because it’s not your job to fix their mess. Your narcissist parent treated you like crap, while the other one helped them.

You’ll always have emotional responses, but in this case you should concentrate on your own wellbeing, not someone else’s.

Deciding for them what other people are feeling seems to be another favourite, Marmaduke

Imagine how your daughter felt when her GP’s told her how she was feeling, instead of asking her about it. It’s so belittling.

@hero I asked her how she felt about the way they behaved towards her and she said it annoyed her at the time. I don’t quite know the right responses to give to her as I am worried that if I say too much about them in a negative way then I will be doing the wrong thing. Like projecting the hatred I have towards them onto her (Possibly another throwback to childhood where telling anyone when they had acted badly would result in me being accused of being some kind of master manipulator out to destroy them). So far she has formed her own opinions of them and I think she sees them for what they are, she is quite dispassionate when she talks about them. I’m glad of that.

Marmaduke, I don't really feel any guilt for cutting people out of my life, it was clear that they were (consciously or unconsciously) working to Sabotage me and I wasn't going to allow that.
I gave them plenty of chances, they made their choices and I made mine.
I was never particularly enmeshed with them as adults though and neither were my children, with my mother, being nasty to me seemed like a kind of compulsion I knew that she would only get worse as she aged and saw me getting on with my life
I think at some level she understands that I did what I had to do.
Or maybe she doesn't, I don't give a fuck it's not my problem.

Hello - sorry to hear about all your stories x I was advised to come on this thread after posting a thread on silent treatment from my parent after a close family death - it was my only sibling.

My parents divorced over 20 years ago. Acrimonious on both sides, my sibling and I were late teens/early twenties. We were not treated well by either parent (parents very concentrated on their pain and anger and we were expected to get on with it "your adults now, this is our life" type attitude). Both parents moved on quickly to new partners. I didn't respond well to the new partners - was stroppy and unwelcoming. Fast forward 10 years and I had children of my own. Relationship with one parent fine (some boundary /emotional blackmail issues but underneath solid love) but with other parent I have always felt wary of and have maintained low but friendly contact. So no depth to the relationship, but see them every month or 2, do birthday and Christmas presents, occasional social visit etc. I have never involved them in childcare.

After an awful illness for last 4 years, my dear sibling died suddenly. Everything seemed fine until funeral with low contact parent. Saw them a few times, had nice chats but also some difficult chats on behalf of my siblings partner but all seemed dealt with respectfully and resolved, some contact after which indicated no issue. But since funeral no contact at all.

I contacted parent and their partner to ask if we can talk about whatever the issue is. No response for 5 weeks and then contacted them again this week and got an email response with a total character assassination of me including lies about me excluding parent from funeral arrangements. My sibling's partner arranged everything. I spoke at funeral, parent was offered opportunity to speak but didn't want to.

Doing some more reading I believe this is narcissistic rage. I don't plan to respond in detail but wonder whether it is worth pointing out the lies? Or is it pointless?

I plan to get some counselling but any thoughts would be great. Thank you

I remember your post. First of all I am so very sorry that you lost your sibling. That’s hard enough.

The opening post on the thread lays out a lot of useful information, there’s lots of stuff to explore and reflect upon.

That email sounds brutal. I can’t imagine what a horrible shock you had. Or did you? Have you had that sort of attack before but perhaps in a different way?

To a narcissist the lies are irrelevant, it’s how they see the situation, no one else really matters. It won’t change their view. Instead of offering you comfort and support they’re pouring their rage and grief on to you. Could you contemplate writing what they wrote to you and sending it to your child?

As a pp said to me, they’ve done you a favour. You can draw a line now and put them firmly behind it.

Concentrate on yourself now. Work on your own future wellbeing. Explore your past, perhaps with someone who understands dysfunctional families?

💐x

@griefmonster sorry you lost your sibling xx I think, both from personal experience and from what others have said on here, that there is literally no point in bothering out the lies. They will just continue to deny, to attack you, it will just add fuel to the fire of their rage. You just can’t reason with unreasonable people. What I am learning is that you have to realise they are not going to react they way a normal person would so you have nothing to gain from attempting to explain yourself to them, they will just use it as an opportunity to direct more shit your way. Pleas don’t give them that opportunity. Read back through a few pages on this thread and you will see what others say, they are all as someone said ‘horribly predictable’ . Sending you love xxx

@Hero and @Marmaduke thank you so much for responding. I saw that comment about horribly predictable and yes it is. I was so sad when I read the email but not surprised. Which set off more sadness. But that is so good to read that there is no point. It will help me stay sane and not run rings around their abyss. The line is drawn. Thank you x

@Griefmonster, I'm so sorry for what you've been through:(
As said this looks like the classic behaviour pattern
imo the purpose of period of silence is to establish dominance by making you wait until they are ready to reply and leave you in a state of stressed anticipation
The character assassination, this is a blatant attack, the provocation is to make you angry so it's harder to think rationally and you are more likely to act against your own interests.
If you respond you are validating them, stepping into the ring with the pig, just dont go there, unless you want to play them at their own game and exact revenge....no dont go there

Instead of offering you comfort and support they’re pouring their rage and grief on to you. Could you contemplate writing what they wrote to you and sending it to your child?
these lines really do speak to me!

@Ulterego - thank you. For your comments on my situation and for sharing your own. I'm in awe of all these people on this thread working so hard to keep themselves and their loved ones safe from harm and helping each other. Much love and light to you all x

The compulsion to obey your parents can feel so powerful, it feels like an operating system installed at birth, if anyone else treated you like that you'd be like 'get to fuck asshole' but with a parent it's as if a spell has been cast over you.
Trying to overwrite it can be hard, I'm focusing at the moment on the fact that this person's behaviour towards me has not been that of parent and so I don't have to respond in the manner of a daughter.
Trying to reframe the situation, this man has picked a fight with me, this time the gloves are off, you had it coming bro

@ulterego I totally get what you are saying. We can do this. Fuck them and their manipulative arsehole behaviour. Mine love to talk about there being ‘consequences’ to actions, ironically failing to see that they dont apply this rule to themselves. In fact, my stepfather expects to be able to have complete control over everyone and everything and looking at his behaviour from a different angle I actually get some real amusement out of it. Latest examples are them hosting regular curry extravaganzas at their caravan where they cater for 20 or so of their new friends (they have roughly a five year cycle with friendship groups before they split and then disparage them and move in to a new group of people) and they have also formed a walking group at their caravan site which he (obviously) is self appointed leader of - he plans the walks and then posts a full write up of it on their closed Facebook group. He is such a massive twat 😂.

That's a whole lot of self-aggrandisement going on right there isn't it Marmaduke 😂 they sound as if they could be a source of great amusement, if not for the fact that they are your relatives.
In his mind he's the emperor, consequences are for the peons he does as he pleases and everyone else has to make room for him.
one could just treat him as he treats other people, order him around as if he is a minion or whatever but it's so TIRING!
because of the way that they advance their own agendas continually and forcefully any interaction with them feels like a wrestling match even though only words are exchanged

Let me guess, did he previously have a fairly senior job?
I'm thinking the job allowed him to express develop and embellish his sense of self importance and when he retired he had to find something else to make him feel like the man at the top of the totem pole.

@ulterego yeah he was in the fire service and when he left he was he was in charge of staffing. He loved to show us the USB stick he carried about and tell us how the running of entire fire service hinged on the contents of that stick. We used to piss ourselves at that one. Recently my husband has been promoted (also in fire service) and is now the same rank as my stepfather was when he retired. Somewhat hilariously, my stepfather is now claiming he was actually a rank above, so he has somehow promoted himself post retirement. He wasn’t and we all know it! But he can’t cope with my DH being on an equal footing. Pathetic ha ha. I hope he lives long enough to see my DH get another promotion, it may actually be enough to finish him off, he will probably have a stroke or something from the rage lol x

He loved to show us the USB stick he carried about and tell us how the running of entire fire service hinged on the contents of that stick.

He took home a USB stick which, according to him, contained confidential and operationally-sensitive data vital to public safety? What an absolute idiot. That would have been enough at the time to see him busted down a rank or two - if not sacked - for gross misconduct.

Whatever happens he has to spin it so that he is the biggest man, he cannot tolerate being bested by anyone.
When you think about it this is a HUGE weakness, I mean you could really wind him up and make him act against his own interests....if you wanted to take the trouble to do so.
Probably better to just stand back and watch, as he gets older and weaker and loses status in the world the gap between how he perceives himself and how others perceive him gets bigger and bigger, he will have to go to greater and greater lengths to try and frame himself as the head honcho.
There is no pathway for him to grow old gracefully.
It's not going to be pretty, hopefully by that point you will have retreated to a safe distance behind some sort of bombproof shield.