"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@simplysteveredux oh no I hope you are ok is there anything you can do to try take your mind off of it? Nice hot bath? Nice food?

Glass of wine 🍷 or two 🍷 🍷 !
You got through the day, Steve, that's what matters.

Wish I could but out tomorrow and driving!

Not sure which was worse, this morning or 27 electrodes stabbed into my body this afternoon!

@SimplySteveRedux
Sorry to hear that. Can you play a computer game to take your mind of it? Forgot to ask what games do you play.

Odd question, but do any of you daydream alot. Since my childhood I would create different worlds I lived in inside my head and daydream sometimes for hours about these worlds. Often to music. I still do now. When I was younger I would daydream about having a different family sometimes. Wondering if it was escapism from my childhood or something.

@pandaatthezoo its called something but cant remember what? It was on another thread, loads of people said they had the same too with the daydreaming often to music.

@PandaAtTheZoo maladaptive daydreaming
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feeling_depressed/2834641-Maladaptive-daydreaming-anyone-else-currently-working-on-it

Do any of you have difficulty with expressing extreme emotions (in your other relationships, not with the narcs). I literally cry about once a year and I very rarely express anger (don’t really shout at all or anything like that even when inside I’m mightily pissed off) . In fact, I have an inappropriate thing that happens where I start to smirk/ laugh when I am really annoyed or having a difficult conversation. It’s very strange but I think it comes from repressing my feelings or something?!

You’ve probably learned not to experience your emotions very much, the emotional ‘weather’ in your house will have been set by the parent.
I often go very ‘cold’ in the face of distress, which means I’m calm in a crisis. But I know it’s from learning not to show how distressed I am.

You can learn how to feel your emotions again, and locate your ‘self’. I hope you do.

@herocomplex yeah that makes sense. Also, I can identify with what you were saying about wanting to save people and all that, I am a massive ‘people pleaser’, it’s an adaptive thing isn’t it that helps us survive in that environment. Doesn’t serve us so well as adults unfortunately eh? X

Same here. Eternal Pollyanna on the outside - that's me - while inside, I'm on constant red alert and hypersensitive to others' moods. It's such a mismatch. DH says he can only tell when I'm angry or upset because my eczema flares up. I get an angry red patch across the back of my neck. It's like a beacon but you'd have to know what to look for.

I think there is a book called The Body Keeps The Score, or something similar.

Panda, my mind retreats to a place where I'd been happy once - a sunny courtyard with a bench under a shady tree, a fountain, and crucially, no one else around. No music, but I can hear the fountain gushing and the wind rustling the leaves on the tree. It is such a strong visualisation that sometimes it is a shock to snap out of it and realise that I am still in the real world and trying to deal with the same old rubbish. I'm sure you're right though - it's pure escapism.

Do any of you have difficulty with expressing extreme emotions

@MarmadukeM
Oh yes, I'm like a brick, just totally emotionally numb. I can't honestly tell you the last time I cried, the last time I proper lost it emotionally or even when I last shed a tear or two. When the house is quiet, DP asleep, middle of the night I often feel myself welling up inside, provoked by music, reading, and my past troubles me most in these moments.

Sadly, I become wound up extremely easily and whilst I wouldn't say I lose my temper, I'm more fiery than I need to be when reacting to things.

I think it's all down to the conditioning received when our emotions are developing as a child.

Forgot to ask what games do you play.

@PandaAtTheZoo
Well. I did a little bit (years) of top-end WoW, love RTS so SC, SC2, WC3, Diablo (2), Dota, bit of everything really, but I'm a perfectionist and so tend towards more competitive games with pretty good results.

Tonight though I've been chilling with a bottle of cider (it's roasting so good excuse) and watching the football!

SimplySteveRedux when you say prepare for the psychological appointment can you explain what you mean? Do you mean what you are going to discuss or what outcome are you looking to get out of it? The reason I ask is that you seem extremely capable of communication and you seem to have extremely good insight on this board and I suspect into the challenges in your life. You are capable of just sketching a note or two and letting the rest happen on the day. You are capable of articulating what needs to be communicated there and then on the spot. You do it all the time on here from what I have read. As I said to you before you have great insight and I’m not just blowing smoke up your ass it is all here in writing.

@Lazydaisies

See, I never even thought it was unusual and you've had me reaching to type a reply multiple times since you asked.

I'm a procrastinator, a perfectionist, nothing is ever good enough, and (thanks parents) due to the abuse and neglect, coupled with brother years ago poo-pooing everything (before I'd worked out the dynamic), it's always been in my head that if I prepare meticulously for things then I can better control the outcome. I can apply this to medical appointments (researching condition, treatment, prognosis etc), computer games, my (old) work, writing, literally everything. I guess it gives me the control that I distinctly lacked for so long.

In terms of today, I'd read three books, I'd prepared a mind-map, I'd written notes... for this afternoons electrode stabbing full research into condition, symptoms, treatments, prognosis.

Another reason I do this is that whilst I find it easy to write (whilst I am able to write emotively, it's also distinctly easier to remove emotion with word) face-to-face is something entirely different, especially when I perceive someone is in position of power over me. So, appointments with men (something I actively avoid, I refused to attend A&E with gallstones despite being on the floor in excruciating pain unable move and projectile vomming. This stand-off lasted a couple of years with attacks every week or two) often result in me literally cowering in my wheelchair, and having a full-blown panic attack in the car. If a woman, say a doctor, starts being assertive/more forceful then the same cowering occurs. On an equal level with women I'm totally fine, but as soon as a detect a power-imbalance I'm done. And men, well I just fucking hate men.

I despise bold fail too. Sorry!

I think there is a book called The Body Keeps The Score, or something similar.

Yep, Bessel van der Kolk. Also see Childhood Disrupted- Donna Jackson Nazakawa.

@SimplySteveRedux do you still live with your DP? Sorry I don’t know how to look at people’s posts apart from scrolling back through all the conversations.

I think where possible it’s good to take a laugh at some of the more outrageous things that have been said/done so I thought i would share this with you all...
So when DD was 1 I got pregnant again and unfortunately had a miscarriage. We were then trying for over a year to get pregnant again and when we did we had an early scan at 7 weeks. We went to my mam and stepdads house to tell them the ‘happy news’ and my mam said ‘oh that’s great, wow’ etc etc and was thrilled. My stepdad showed how overjoyed he was by saying ‘come back and tell us again when you are 3 months’. I still laugh about it now. What a prick! X

do you still live with your DP?

Yep! 22 years...

@SimplySteveRedux oh Christ! I feel for you, I really do. Xx

I don't show alot of emotions in public. But I will cry over small things when alone. Like when I'm watching a film or TV show with family members doing nice things for each other.

SimplySteveRedux
I'm also a procrastinator and a perfectionist and I will obsess over things for days, sometimes months or more. What you say about trying to control the outcome and get control that you distinctly lacked for so long, wonder if that's why I have magical thinking ocd. As a way to control the outcome of my life.

MarmadukeM what an awful thing to say

So glad to have this thread by I am desperately regretting going no contact. Now I have no contact with my siblings (one of them has never visited me 20 mins from their home so doesn't even know where I live - 4 years). I haven't contacted them since I broke contact with dm.

I feel physically sick and am worried dm will die or something (she is ill and has threatened suicide in the past) and worried I won't be allowed at the funeral and everyone will hate me. Sorry for being irrational. My father will never speak to me again - I know this. Unless I visit them and take all the insults (jokes) and go home hurt time and time again.

But

She has had severe depression as long as I have known. My father said she was on tablets because of me (in a conversation a year ago) but she has always had anger problems and never worked. Falls out with everyone and my father doesnt get on with his siblings and she doesn't either. So I tg can't be me causing the stress. SIL left also and I strongly feel is was caused my their ways too. Luckily my dh is supportive and has seen how they work but he said I should meet them half way.

@PandaAtTheZoo I really don’t care that he said it as it just proves what a piece of shit he actually is; the way I see it is that he inadvertently did me a favour in some ways. Apparently he felt justified in saying that to me because my previous miscarriage had upset my mother and he didn’t want me upsetting her again by having another one. I honestly find it amusing now and it makes me feel more emotionally strong as I can see what I am dealing with here. Fuck him the nasty old man.

@Chilledout11 I’m sorry you feel the way you do. I don’t have advice but I am familiar with being on the wrong end of the blame game. You are not responsible for your mothers depression. They love to turn things around and put them on us, sometimes I don’t think they are even aware of what they are doing, it’s just a habit. It’s always someone else’s fault, never their own. Hugs xx

Adverse reactions to announcements of pregnancy?
I told my mother on the phone that I was pregnant for the second time, she responded (in her trademark acid tone)
'you're not right in the head'
and then she changed the subject
I was blindsided and couldn't form a response.
I eagerly await news of her death, I feel her presence in the world slipping, the grasp of her talons loosening, the day must come soon, it can't come soon enough