"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

They all follow the same rules, they’re all boringly, terrifyingly the same.

That's the supreme irony, isn't it? Each and every one of them is so self-absorbed that they truly believe that they are special and unique, and the centre of the universe around whom all others must revolve. The truth is they're all the flipping same.

Another poster on another thread related how she found her narc mother sobbing piteously because "I've just realised that^ one day I will die and life will go on without me^".

Well yes, but I suppose the rest of us will just have to try to struggle on as best we can.

Oh god Singing that’s so messed up and funny!

Did someone point out that narcs are like three year olds? I think it helps to try and be objective. Look here it comes, you can say to yourself. I realised when I was (foolishly) giving my DM some ‘transmission time’ on Saturday that she has tones of voice which are meant to be intimidating. She says ‘Oh, do you’ in a kind of low voice of doom. And repeats what she thinks are key phrases back to you in a different harder tone. It used to make me desperate to appease her. Now I just see the ‘man behind the curtain’ rather than The Mighty Oz.

I've been reading all your posts and nodding and agreeing with so many things I agree they are all so boringly but terrifyingly the same! Still doesn't stop the anger/pain/hurt though.

I've recently been remembering old memories in a different way. Where I would feel hurt about something my mum said I now feel anger because I can see it's not normal and I would never ever say stuff like that to my DS.

I'm still trying to get into counselling there's a long waiting list. I hope it goes down quickly. I'm feeling exhausted and mentally drained.

I love the ‘transmission time’ phrase ha ha. My stepdad is definitely on permanent ‘send’. So what do yous advice with regard to my mother? This is where the complex emotions lie for sure. I really don’t give a shit about my stepdad, I don’t even view him as human to be honest as the way he goes on is in humane. However, with my mother I struggle not to feel massively guilty as she hasn’t directly been awful to me but it’s impossible to separate them. He sees to that. In the past I tried to meet with her to discuss things, she agreed and then he overruled it. Case in point, he has waded in on the latest disagreement and is no doubt loving it, being able to paint us as the bad guys just because my husband has dared ask them not to slag him off in front of our kids. Why do I still feel so bad about my mother? She chooses her life, I know this, and it would be a different story if he wasn’t around, but he is. As I’ve said, he will not permit us to have a relationship that excludes him (and I also, rationally know, but do not understand why) my mother allows him to control her in this way. Its like my relationship with her has suffered as some kind of collateral damage from what he usually instigates. But she allows it. So I’m massively confused/torn. Sorry to be drain but I am really appreciating people’s advice as I am struggling to make sense of things in this dept xx

Hi Marmaduke
Your DM is what’s known as an enabler. She allows you DF to abuse you because it’s easier for her to bear that than defend you and stand up to him. She’s co-dependent on him, probably had a dreadful childhood.

But that’s not your fault. She could choose you, but she didn’t. She’s chosen him.

Of course you feel conflicted, she’s giving you what you think of as love and support, because that’s all you’ve ever had.

They’re a pair, don’t divide them. To be honest I feel better that my DF is supporting my DM, if he left her she’d blame me and my DSis, and he’d think we should be grateful, despite all the horrible shit he’s put us through. No thanks, stay together, I don’t care what they do now, or what they think about!

It takes a LOT of thinking and realising and talking with your DH to untangle it all. Years of mess to tidy away.

Make them insignificant, they had a chance but they were incapable. Keep saying no, no I don’t want to see you, no you can’t come round, no I’m not discussing it, no thanks, no thanks, no thanks
I have sometimes used visualisation techniques to help with this, imagine you are editing a photo on a computer, imagine turning down the contrast, turning down all the colours until it greys and fades.
Obviously you could also actually do it with some photos on your computer, as you do this say to yourself that you are greying them out of your life, or whatever phrase feels right for you

Their wants and needs do not supercede yours. Save yourself first. Have boundaries like iron bands
I just want to echo your heroic words 🤩🤩🤩

Choc it’s quite a powerful thing when the pain turns to anger. Write it down, as pp have suggested. Every bad thing you went through, read it back, and feel all the feelings for that child who went through that. Then go and do something nice for yourself. Have these 💐. Xx

she became furious that DD had a temper tantrum and hissed angrily at me that she had been waiting for this moment for months. She went on to tell me this was my fault for not providing appropriate discipline for my child, who is miserable because she has no structure or rules. She also said my entire family talks behind my back about how unruly DD is and how I let her run wild

How did you not punch her in the face?
who does she think she is, this is appalling 😳
Waiting for this moment for months???
she has been waiting for a chance to criticise you and crush you, salivating over it enjoying the anticipation of putting you down and making you feel stupid, those are not the actions of a good or decent parent she does not deserve any consideration from you whatsoever, you should kick her the fuck out of your life
(Of course I'm not really advocating violence)

My user name is quite deliberate, by the way. For years I have helped people, been an excellent helper, known for my good advice, good listening and kindness. I have a ‘hero complex’ I daydream about saving people.
It was only when I did therapy that I gained the insight that I was trying to fill the chasm, the supermassive black hole, the yawning void of desperation to be loved by my parents.

My eyes fill with tears if you give me a kind word I’m not ready for. I once got some really incisive feedback at work and I had to go to the loo because I was sobbing my heart out. I just craved love, but it was never there. But now I understand, and I’m dealing with it. But I’ll always have that yearning.

Channel that anger ulter but don’t display it to a narc, they LOVE drama. A punch, an angry response, a scene is all feeding their need, and you’ve lost control.

Cold indifference kills the beast.

Absolutely! Any attention - it almost doesn't matter what kind - is what they want. They have to be the centre of attention, you see. That's why indifference and radio silence are such effective responses.

I know you're right Hero, getting angry just makes them feel important, it tells them that they are 'worth it'

ulter did your DP’s wallop you? Do you think about revenge? That’s ok, fantasising about fighting back is part of it I think.
There was a piece I read about elder abuse recently which was interesting, adult children just replaying the violence they’d endured in childhood. (I know violence is never justified)

When I think about revenge I have a kind of fantasy where I am the same age as my mother like we are both 30 years old and I beat the living shit out of her
That feels good

actually no I'm not sure I want to hurt to her so much I want to grab her by the throat slam her against the wall and scream in her face, right in her face.
I want to be the ogre

On the subject of elder abuse, I have no desire to harm someone who is weaker than me, however seeing them weaken I sense my own power growing, the barriers which stopped me speaking out against them are dissolving as they decline.
I know that if I was in the position where they are weak and vulnerable and I had to care for them, I wouldn't do it I would just walk away and leave them because I know the desire to get revenge would overtake me.

It feels like an instinctive thing, the furious child is always in your unconscious mind and she will seize the moment as soon as she knows she has the power

That’s a very hard thing to live with, that level of violence. She’s not worth putting your shoes on for, let alone swinging a punch.

I think your visualisation techniques of turning down the picture to dull greys are brilliant.

As soon as he started to decline physically I found myself becoming increasingly irritated by him but he's a crafty evil old man and I know that he wants to provoke me into attacking him in some way so that he can play the victim

Good. You know their game, and it’s a dull one. Don’t play.

Thanks @Hero😊the technique was inspired by something I read about how to get over an unhappy romance.
Another thing which occurs, you could do it with an actual photo, put it in a container of water and just watch all the colours fade out of it, see them gradually dissolve.
Also photos can be burned (obviously be careful) but you can watch the smoke drifting out of the window and see the relationship you have with them just dissolving and drifting away, you can then scatter the ashes of the photo and as you do so scatter the last remnants of the relationship and watch it blow away on the wind

Agree they love any kind of attention. My mum once admitted to me that she liked arguing especially with my dad. She's smirked at me when she's got her own way with my dad and said I knew he would come around. She is the most malnipulitive person I know!!
I'm actually laughing abit at the sheer bluntness of her.

@SingingLily yes, that's right! They divorced when j was a year old and then both quickly met their new partners. My dad in particular moved on immediately as far as I can tell.

My mother has actually improved a lot over the years (recovering alcoholic who attends regular meetings) and she is very loving and supportive in her own way. She lives in a different country, so we don't see each other physically much. I think this is the easiest way as her controlling nature is very difficult to deal with. I do know that when I leave my husband (which I am going to have to do soon), she will be there to support me, in her own way. She loves me and wants to be close to me.

I still see my father and stepmother, but am just very low contact. This wasn't exactly a conscious decision on my part but they seem to have little interest in maintaining a close relationship with me.

@MarmadukeM thanks! Yes, I am sure we will be fine! It takes a lot to realise that there is something wrong. I think that is the first step in finding a new way to be and to live.

Also @MarmadukeM yes, I see the similarities with the enabling parent. At a certain point, it's not good enough to just be passive and weak when the happiness and safety of your children is at stake.

Just got home, what a day. Excuse me while I blart out 5l of tears...